Religion III

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The Christian Faith is grounded in rational faith -- not blind, irrational faith.

"Rational faith" is an oxymoron.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

"Rational faith" is an oxymoron.

No, it isn't. Do you trust the people you love? Assuming you do love someone in this world, do you know that person? Do you trust people who are complete strangers to you?

Moreover, the Word of God does not expect us to trust anyone we don't know. While God is pure spirit and, therefore, cannot be sensed or detected by our natural senses, nonetheless God, who can do all things, graciously reveals himself through his gift of the Holy Spirit who He has given to his chosen people.

John 10:14-15
14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father — and I lay down my life for the sheep.
NIV

And Paul said,

2 Tim 1:12
12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.
NIV

Because Paul had this personal, intimate, loving relationship with God, he could say I KNOW who it is that I have entrusted my life to -- and this is why he implicitly trusted Christ. Paul was convinced, based on his covenantal relationship with God, which he had in Christ, that his life was secure in Christ's hands. This doctrine of the Preservation of the Saints, Jesus also taught in the Good Shepherd Discourse in John 10.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

No, it isn't. ...

Can you prove that God exists? No, you cannot. Can I prove God does not exist? No, I cannot. The only "rational" religion is agnosticism.

Rationality does not enter into it. The rest of your rant is circular reasoning and non-sequitors.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Do you trust people who are complete strangers to you?

Quite often I do. If I go to the emergency room I trust the doctors and nurses to do their utmost to save my life and return me to health.

When I go to the bank and cash a check I trust the teller to give me the correct amount. I do count what I get but that's to guard against mistakes, not because I don't trust the teller.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Quite often I do. If I go to the emergency room I trust the doctors and nurses to do their utmost to save my life and return me to health.

When I go to the bank and cash a check I trust the teller to give me the correct amount. I do count what I get but that's to guard against mistakes, not because I don't trust the teller.

But more often you don't. And in emergency situations, we don't have a whole lot of choice do we? We take what's available at the time -- because in emergencies TIME is of the essence?

Moreover, that's the teller's job at the bank. If the teller is incompetent or untrustworthy, I venture to say that teller won't be there long.

So, if you're so trusting of your fellow man, including strangers, you wouldn't mind sharing with us some of your personal information on this forum, would you? We could start with your SS#, your login info to your bank accounts, provide us with your credit card numbers, etc.

And tell us: Do your leave the doors of your home unlocked, even when you leave the house? Do you leave them unlocked at night when you go to bed?

If you park your car in the driveway, do you leave the doors unlocked?

If you have a home alarm security system on your house, do you give the passcode to anyone who asks for it?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Can you prove that God exists? No, you cannot. Can I prove God does not exist? No, I cannot. The only "rational" religion is agnosticism.

Rationality does not enter into it. The rest of your rant is circular reasoning and non-sequitors.

I know God exists. Furthermore, evolutionism is a self-defeating worldview. Can you prove macroevolution?

Moreover, you personally believe the universe is eternal, so how does that square with evolution which relies on Time + Chance for anything to exist?

[boxcar]

Hey, Actor, the next time you go to the bank, try getting a loan without a credit check. Let me know how that works out for you.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by Actor

He does not understand how natural selection works.

Emergent consciousness is a theory. But no questioning the theory, right Thomas Nagel, Raymond Tallis, et.al.?

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by Actor

So??? Why should non-Catholics carw what the Catholic Church thinks?

You made an absolute statement.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Hey, Actor, the next time you go to the bank, try getting a loan without a credit check. Let me know how that works out for you.

I have no need to borrow money.

But your "universal law of distrust" implies that no one trusts, nor should anyone trust, anyone else. You are appealing to the fallacy of ignorance, i.e., assuming that there are only two possibilities and if one cannot be proven then the other must be true. This is often called the black and white fallacy because it assumes there is no middle ground.

Take your example of a credit check. The primary question of a credit check is not can I be trusted to pay the loan back, rather it is the question of do I have the means to pay it back. I have no doubt that getting a car loan would be no problem, but borrowing ten million dollars to buy a twelve bedroom house would be another matter.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

You made an absolute statement.

That does not answer my question?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

Emergent consciousness is a theory. But no questioning the theory, right Thomas Nagel, Raymond Tallis, et.al.?

The guy asked "What was the purpose of consciousness when reproduction was doing just fine?" Evolution has no purpose, ergo, the guy does not understand evolution.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Can you prove macroevolution?

Biology is not my field, however, the prevailing view among biologists is that they have proven macroevolution. I suggest you read Richard Dawkins.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Moreover, you personally believe the universe is eternal, so how does that square with evolution which relies on Time + Chance for anything to exist?

I disagree with your thesis that evolution relies on time + chance for anything to exist. It implies that anything that exists must have come into existence. But the data seems to suggest that everything has always existed, albeit in a different form. Go far enough back in time and the only thing that existed was pure energy. Some of this energy condensed to become matter.

This is what I believe but I do not believe it in a religious sense. Rather I see it as a hypothesis which is falsifiable. If someone manages to falsify it then I will gladly change my view and go on from there.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

I have no need to borrow money.

But your "universal law of distrust" implies that no one trusts, nor should anyone trust, anyone else. You are appealing to the fallacy of ignorance, i.e., assuming that there are only two possibilities and if one cannot be proven then the other must be true. This is often called the black and white fallacy because it assumes there is no middle ground.

Take your example of a credit check. The primary question of a credit check is not can I be trusted to pay the loan back, rather it is the question of do I have the means to pay it back. I have no doubt that getting a car loan would be no problem, but borrowing ten million dollars to buy a twelve bedroom house would be another matter.

No, my law does not imply any such thing! The universal Principle of Distrust is grounded in empirical observation of Life -- that is to to say how the World System works! Life does not work on the presumption of blind trust; it works on the presumption of Distrust of all people unknown to us, until they can prove otherwise. Once people can prove themselves, others have a reason to trust them, therefore, the trust is reasonable and rational.

Re the credit check, your foolish explanation begs the question big time. Why doesn't the bank take your word that you have the means to pay the loan back!? Why can't anyone just walk into a bank and say they need "X" amount of money for this, that or some other thing and promise that they'll pay it back on the bank's terms or even exceed its terms -- and walk out with money in hand?

Or ever held a job in your life? Tell us how you how you just walked into the prospective employer's office and got the job merely on your gift of spiel -- without any resume, without giving any personal and professional references, and how your employers found criminal background checks to be in poor taste.

By the way, we're still waiting for that personal information I asked you for in my last post.