12 Match Races of Christmas

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by mountainman

Big fun. And I DID try conforming to the rules and format. The operative word is "try."

So, Mountainman, you made some good points in defense of Dr.Fager. But you left out a lot of context. For instance his 43 and 4 half in the Vosburgh; began with a three furlong straight away out of the Acqueduct chute. Dr. Fager’s 44 second opening half in his world record setting mile at Arlington benefitted from that tracks mile straight. Then there was the Withers stakes, again at Aqueduct with a straight half mile run from the starting gate to the far turn, and on that date at least, a strong tail win. Might have helped the 44 and 1 half mile time. Same might be said of his 44 and 4 time in the Champagne.

Ruffian on the other hand ran her sub 45 second half miles at least half around a turn.

As to your claim Ruffian never beat anybody, not completely true.
Hot and Nasty won the Hollywood Lassie, the Arlington Washington Lassie and the Test Stakes and finished second in the Signature Stakes,
Laughing Bridge won the Schuyerville and Adirondack Stakes at Saratoga and was second in the Spinaway.
Aunt Jin won the Grade 3 Signature and Mermaid Stakes and the Grade One Selina Stakes and Monmouth Oaks. She also won the non graded Cherry Hill Oaks. Besides her second to Ruffian, she was second to Susan’s Girl in the Grade 1 Matchmaker and Second in the Grade one Alabama.

I take a back seat to no one in my admiration for Dr. Fager, but I think Ruffian could have beaten him.

[Nitro]

Originally Posted by mostpost

So, Mountainman, you made some good points in defense of Dr.Fager. But you left out a lot of context. For instance his 43 and 4 half in the Vosburgh; began with a three furlong straight away out of the Acqueduct chute. Dr. Fager’s 44 second opening half in his world record setting mile at Arlington benefitted from that tracks mile straight. Then there was the Withers stakes, again at Aqueduct with a straight half mile run from the starting gate to the far turn, and on that date at least, a strong tail win. Might have helped the 44 and 1 half mile time. Same might be said of his 44 and 4 time in the Champagne.

Ruffian on the other hand ran her sub 45 second half miles at least half around a turn.

As to your claim Ruffian never beat anybody, not completely true.
Hot and Nasty won the Hollywood Lassie, the Arlington Washington Lassie and the Test Stakes and finished second in the Signature Stakes,
Laughing Bridge won the Schuyerville and Adirondack Stakes at Saratoga and was second in the Spinaway.
Aunt Jin won the Grade 3 Signature and Mermaid Stakes and the Grade One Selina Stakes and Monmouth Oaks. She also won the non graded Cherry Hill Oaks. Besides her second to Ruffian, she was second to Susan’s Girl in the Grade 1 Matchmaker and Second in the Grade one Alabama.

I take a back seat to no one in my admiration for Dr. Fager, but I think Ruffian could have beaten him.

During Ruffian's limited racing career the only way it was able to win and beat her competition was to be in front by the ½ mile and without any pressure.

Foolish Pleasure took it to her by pressing early and taking the lead at the ½ mile. BTW it was that intense pressure that caused Ruffian’s fatality.

As I mentioned Dr. Fager would easily beat either one of them even carrying weight, but at even weights – forget about it.
In your admiration of DR. Fager think you should take a closer look at not only the incredible early fractions but the splits for the entire race!

[thetripleclowns]

On the 11th day of Christmas The Triple Clowns bring to you, Craig Milkowski, to debate a match race between California Chrome vs Tiznow

Who do you think would win this race?

YouTube (Short URL)

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by Nitro

During Ruffian's limited racing career the only way it was able to win and beat her competition was to be in front by the ½ mile and without any pressure.

Foolish Pleasure took it to her by pressing early and taking the lead at the ½ mile. BTW it was that intense pressure that caused Ruffian’s fatality.

As I mentioned Dr. Fager would easily beat either one of them even carrying weight, but at even weights – forget about it.
In your admiration of DR. Fager think you should take a closer look at not only the incredible early fractions but the splits for the entire race!

Nitro, reading one of your bullshit posts never fails to make me want to bash my head into a wall. At least you're good at something.

[cj]

Originally Posted by thetripleclowns

On the 11th day of Christmas The Triple Clowns bring to you, Craig Milkowski, to debate a match race between California Chrome vs Tiznow

Who do you think would win this race?

https://youtu.be/s633ZSdtDwE

This was tough for me, two horses I really like a lot.

[Nitro]

Originally Posted by castaway01

Nitro, reading one of your bullshit posts never fails to make me want to bash my head into a wall. At least you're good at something.

Well maybe I should write a few more because apparently it’s the only way it’s going to knock some real sense into that uninspiring brain of yours!

BTW if you have anything factual that contradicts my comments why not be a man and stand behind your convictions?
Your personal insinuations are childish at best!

Besides, you know dam well you couldn't recognize anything "good" unless it bit you in the face.

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by Nitro

During Ruffian's limited racing career the only way it was able to win and beat her competition was to be in front by the ½ mile and without any pressure.

Foolish Pleasure took it to her by pressing early and taking the lead at the ½ mile. BTW it was that intense pressure that caused Ruffian’s fatality.

As I mentioned Dr. Fager would easily beat either one of them even carrying weight, but at even weights – forget about it.
In your admiration of DR. Fager think you should take a closer look at not only the incredible early fractions but the splits for the entire race!

In order to pressure Ruffian, a horse would have to run as fast as her. Clearly none of them could. It wasn’t that was the only way she could beat them, it was the only way she had to.

[mountainman]

Originally Posted by mostpost

So, Mountainman, you made some good points in defense of Dr.Fager. But you left out a lot of context.

That context is my opponent's job to point out, sir.

[mountainman]

Originally Posted by mostpost

As to your claim Ruffian never beat anybody, not completely true.
Hot and Nasty won the Hollywood Lassie, the Arlington Washington Lassie and the Test Stakes and finished second in the Signature Stakes,
Laughing Bridge won the Schuyerville and Adirondack Stakes at Saratoga and was second in the Spinaway.
Aunt Jin won the Grade 3 Signature and Mermaid Stakes and the Grade One Selina Stakes and Monmouth Oaks. She also won the non graded Cherry Hill Oaks. Besides her second to Ruffian, she was second to Susan’s Girl in the Grade 1 Matchmaker and Second in the Grade one Alabama.

I'm honored that you took the time to watch, Most. Great work digging that up. But not exactly household names, sir. Of course, that's partially due to the suffocating presence of Ruffian.

When I challenged my opponent to close his workbook and name just ONE horse she beat, my debate was won.

For the record, my admiration for the filly has no bounds, and I had little taste for putting negative spin on her achievements.

You might be interested to know that without hesitation I would take Hoist the Flag to outrun her. Now THAT (arcane) debate would interest ONLY the true believers. But it would match similar legacies. Not apples and oranges.

[P Matties Jr]

Originally Posted by the little guy

Skip Away would have crushed Gun Runner.

Nobody would've "crushed" Gun Runner when he was 4 or 5.

[cj]

Originally Posted by P Matties Jr

Nobody would've "crushed" Gun Runner when he was 4 or 5.

I have to side with Paul on this one, sorry Andy.

[SharpCat]

Originally Posted by P Matties Jr

Nobody would've "crushed" Gun Runner when he was 4 or 5.

YouTube

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by mountainman

I'm honored that you took the time to watch, Most. Great work digging that up. But not exactly household names, sir. Of course, that's partially due to the suffocating presence of Ruffian.

When I challenged my opponent to close his workbook and name just ONE horse she beat, my debate was won.

For the record, my admiration for the filly has no bounds, and I had little taste for putting negative spin on her achievements.

You might be interested to know that without hesitation I would take Hoist the Flag to outrun her. Now THAT (arcane) debate would interest ONLY the true believers. But it would match similar legacies. Not apples and oranges.

Clearly your knowledge of the sport is vastly superior to that of the kid you were debating. Had you chosen the opposite proposition I think you would still have emerged triumphant.

[Ray Donovon]

Originally Posted by P Matties Jr

Nobody would've "crushed" Gun Runner when he was 4 or 5.

Gun Runner would have been quaking in his boots after the big gray stared him down before the race.

[mountainman]

In the course of recruiting for our WV Derby, I got to chat several times with Sonny Hine, a charming guy whose well- warranted pride in Skip Away shone through in colorful anecdotes.

The best, as I recollect, had a distinct ring of truth and involved Bob Baffert actually peaking around corners in attempting to find out whether Sonny planned on running his big horse, whom BB apparently was hell-bent on ducking, in some allowance race, or other.