Religious

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Oh come on...

This is God...coming to "save the lost sheep of Israel".

He is going to work 18 years as an unknown carpenter -- like the church claims -- and teach for only two years?

Actually, it was more than 2. But be that as it may, even if it were one, what is the big deal? He fulfilled his mission. He fulfilled all the prophecies. Even his gospel message and his church has gone throughout the earth, as He prophesied.

If I lived up north, I could take all your straw men and burn them as fuel for many winters to keep warm.

Meanwhile, who did you say is saving you from your sins?

Boxcar

[falconridge]

Originally Posted by falconridge

Thanks, Al, for that excerpt from the 4th ("Messianic") Eclogue (ca. 40 BC), from which, as you very well know, hosts of scholars and writers (Augustine and Dante among them) over the past several centuries inferred that Vergil was a pre-embryo Christian--although the supposed "prophecy" was actually a paean to young Octavian (63 BC - 19 AD).

I was in the process of correcting my earlier post when I was interrupted by a telephone call , and the "Edit" option timed out before I could make the intended emendations. Al, I can see that, as a classicist, you've progressed well beyond the schoolboy parsings I attempted--nearly 40 years ago--in Father Kelly's 11th-grade Latin class. Thanks for setting me straight about the eclogue's being directed at M.A. et uxor.

By the way, here's hoping tomorrow turns out to be your best birthday yet.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Meanwhile, who did you say is saving you from your sins?

I didn't say...

[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by falconridge

By the way, here's hoping tomorrow turns out to be your best birthday yet.

Why thank you. I generally hide on my birthday and celebrate the next day. I like to avoid what flows in the streets on that day.

[falconridge]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

what flows in the streets on that day

Rivers of green- (and black-and-tan-) tinged abdominal spewings?

Erin go brew!

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by Overlay

What do the passages mean, then? For example (to cite two), when Micah, speaking after the time of King David, said that out of Bethlehem (where both David and Jesus -- despite the fact that Jesus was commonly known as Jesus of Nazareth -- were born) would come he who was to be ruler in Israel, whose origins were of old, from everlasting -- a circumstance over which Jesus himself (as a human) would have had no control, and a description of whom would not fit a mere human being (as David was). To whom else would this passage apply? Or are the Gospel details of Jesus' birth taken to be a fabrication?

Why should it matter to a believer how another religion views these passages? That the prophecy is true for YOU is what counts.

IMO, the entire message of Micah can be summed up in one verse:

6:8

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by TJDave

IMO, the entire message of Micah can be summed up in one verse:

6:8

And you do that perfectly all the time, do you?

Boxcar

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And you do that perfectly all the time, do you?

Boxcar

Of course not. Nobody's perfect, not even God.

[Overlay]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Why should it matter to a believer how another religion views these passages? That the prophecy is true for YOU is what counts.

If a supposedly prophetic passage is not objectively fulfilled at some point in a manner verifiable by anyone, the author of that passage is not worth listening to. (That is the same criteria that God gave to the people of Israel to distinguish false prophets.) It is that objective fulfillment that verifies the authority of the speaker.

[Overlay]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Of course not. Nobody's perfect, not even God.

Could you give an example or elaborate on that, please?

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by Overlay

If a supposedly prophetic passage is not objectively fulfilled at some point in a manner verifiable by anyone, the author of that passage is not worth listening to. (That is the same criteria that God gave to the people of Israel to distinguish false prophets.) It is that objective fulfillment that verifies the authority of the speaker, or the person/entity that the speaker indicates that he represents.

I'm glad you began your response with supposedly.

Dude, it's ALL supposed. Religion is based on faith. The bible was written, redacted and more importantly, is interpreted by man.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by Overlay

Could you give an example or elaborate on that, please?

I would make the case that Hitler, Stalin and Mao were mistakes of the highest order.

[Overlay]

Originally Posted by TJDave

I would make the case that Hitler, Stalin and Mao were mistakes of the highest order.

Where does man's responsibility for his own conduct enter into the picture? Or are you speaking of God not directly intervening to stop those atrocities?

[Overlay]

Originally Posted by TJDave

I'm glad you began your response with supposedly.

Dude, it's ALL supposed. Religion is based on faith. The bible was written, redacted and more importantly, is interpreted by man.

So you're saying that not just Christianity, but also Judaism itself, are both gigantic cases of backfitting, and that there are no recorded instances of before-the-fact prophecies of events that subsequently became historical truth, or of God providing mankind with standards of behavior to follow. Why do you characterize yourself as a Jew, then? What part of Judaism do you consider true? What do you draw your personal moral code from, or where did Judaism derive its moral standards?

Yes, a great deal of religion is based on faith, but not all of it. God has taken the initiative to provide man with information that he could not observe or deduce on his own, and that information is sufficient for this life.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by Overlay

Where does man's responsibility for his own conduct enter into the picture? Or are you speaking of God not directly intervening to stop those atrocities?

I'm speaking of God's not intervening prior to their having been born.

An omniscient God would know, have known, correct?