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Old 09-10-2012, 08:38 AM   #2401
hcap
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Originally Posted by Overlay
If God had not been merciful, all of humanity would have perished in the Flood (although anyone who wanted to could have entered the ark and been saved). Nor would God have become human to satisfy God's judgment against humanity's sin on our behalf.
The "Flood" really is a parable about the transformation of the individual. Although it could also apply to esoteric humanity that keeps and secures real knowledge when most of humanity goes through periodic upheavals and falls into periods similar to the "Dark Ages"

The transformation of an individual internally is sometimes depicted as a caterpillar transforming into a butterfly. In Zen there are a number of paintings that depict a man and an Ox. (Sometimes a bull)

1.Seeking the Ox.
2.Finding the tracks.
3.First glimpse of the Ox.
4.Catching the Ox.
5.Taming the Ox.
6.Riding the Ox home!
7.Ox forgotten, Self alone.
8.Both Ox and Self forgotten.
9.Returning to the source.
10.Entering the Market Place with open hands.

"In Buddhist scripture from ancient times sages have compared the human mind with a wild ox. The ox, the most useful beast of burden, had to be captured, tethered and broken to a harness of sorts, a long slow process which eventually made available to man the great power of the beast. Following the example in the story, the Zen initiate is encouraged to directly experience his own mind through zazen (sitting meditation), subdue anxieties and desires, experience oneness with all, and find ultimately great peacefulness (satori)."

What the above does not mention explicitly is that much of who we are must be let go. This is a painful journey. The Ox is pretty damn stubborn. Separating the wheat from the chaff. The 'Flood is a parable for this separation process. It can be taken ast he ultimate transformation as Jesus went thru' or a series of smaller "floods" where we drop small parts of our unneeded self piece by piece.

Last edited by hcap; 09-10-2012 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 09-10-2012, 08:46 AM   #2402
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http://www.4peaks.com/ppox.htm



"1. The Search for the Bull

In the pasture of this world,
I endlessly push aside the tall grasses in search of the bull.
Following unnamed rivers,
lost upon the interpenetrating paths of distant mountains,
My strength failing and my vitality exhausted,
I cannot find the bull.
I only hear the locusts chirring through the forest at night.

Comment: The bull never has been lost.
What need is there to search?
Only because of separation from my true nature,
I fail to find him.
In the confusion of the senses I lose even his tracks.
Far from home, I see many crossroads,
but which way is the right one I know not.
Greed and fear, good and bad, entangle me.
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Old 09-10-2012, 08:59 AM   #2403
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Originally Posted by TJDave
You do understand that Jews are still around and that these prejudicial comments have historically lead to discrimination, persecution and worse, right?

Hardly threatening. My intent is to share his opinions with a much larger audience. A benevolent publicist.
I realize that Jews have been the vicitms of horrible persecution for centuries.

I do not believe that Boxcar intended to make any comments that were prejudicial that would lead to discrimination. Your sensors are over sensitive on this.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:14 PM   #2404
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Originally Posted by Overlay
If God had not been merciful, all of humanity would have perished in the Flood...
It is because of comments like these that I fear this thread may never end.

There is a reason why some of us continue to ask the same questions of you over and over, Overlay...and that is because you and Boxcar have not provided reasonable answers for them.

You are trying to portray God as our "Heavenly Father"...even though the bible describes his behavior as being anything BUT "fatherly".

A good father does not openly discriminate against his "children"...by caring about the welfare of the few, while neglecting the many. Have you ever provided an answer for the question of why God picked the Jews as his "chosen" people...and why Jesus -- who repeatedly stated that his sole purpose on this earth was to 'save the lost sheep of Israel' -- would refer to outsiders as "dogs"? Is this an example of proper fatherhood?

You keep on telling us that all the catastrophies that have occurred on this planet have been..."the consequences of the sins of man"...and you state that the "severity of God's reaction" has been discussed previously. They HAVE been discussed previously...but they have not been explained ADEQUATELY!

If you and Boxcar would occasionaly utter an "I don't know" when discussing God and his actions, then I would not be so persistant in pushing for adequate answers; but you guys have not said "I don't know" even once...and act as if you know EXACTLY what God has in mind...and why he does what he does. So...would you mind explaining to me what you mean when you say that the "severity of God's reaction" to the sins of man have already been previously explained? WHERE?

There are millions of kids starving in this world right NOW...while millions more refuse to eat the delicious food that their parents give them, because "they don't like it". If God is retaliating against the starving kids because of their "sins"...is he rewarding American kids because of their "virtues"?

If he was benevolent enough to still the sun so Joshua and his men could fight their enemies in daylight...then why can't he provide for the starving kids of our world today?

Is there anything worse than been a starving kid in a poor country...while knowing that, in some other countries, we throw perfectly good food in the garbage?

You say that God showed his merciful nature by the fact that not all of humanity perished in the Flood.

And I suppose those German soldiers were displaying their "merciful nature", when they were lining up the Jewish prisoners...and they were only shooting SOME, instead of all of them...
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:15 PM   #2405
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Originally Posted by TJDave
Nice. You should be proud.

I'm confident that one day soon, I'll be able to attach a face and name to that statement.
I should be proud or should all Jews who were the chosen nation of God and entrusted with His holy oracles and privileged in every way be ashamed? I know I am ashamed of all the phony preachers of the gospel in this New Covenant economy. But at least I confess that the Church is filled with apostates today, but you? (Even Christ himself rhetorically asked, "When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?") Are you going to totally disown the OT scriptures and Jewish history? Are you going to deny the Assyrian captivity? The Babylonian captivity? The Diaspora of 70 A.D.? But even more importantly, the primary reason behind these disastrous events? Do you really believe for a moment that these events were just random? Just happened in a vacuum? That these were not divine judgments by a holy God?

You should dig into your own scriptures some day and find out what they are really saying -- before it's too late. I have no animosity toward you or any other Jews As Paul himself wrote:

Rom 11:11-24
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression be riches for the world and their failure be riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 And if the first piece of dough be holy, the lump is also; and if the root be holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
NASB

It was the Jews who preserved the holy scriptures and "handed them down" to the Church through their faith in the Messiah. There would be no Church if there were no scriptures because the word of God is absolutely vital to spiritual life.

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Old 09-10-2012, 12:20 PM   #2406
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You do understand that Jews are still around and that these prejudicial comments have historically lead to discrimination, persecution and worse, right?
They would be prejudicial if they weren't true! So, if someone speaks the truth and you don't like the truth, that person is a bigot? If so, then what does that make a person who intentionally speaks falsehoods to the detriment of some group, race or ethnicity?

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Old 09-10-2012, 12:28 PM   #2407
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But the bible is not one book. It is one volume of a collection of 66 books penned by about 40 people..
Unless you're Catholic. Their Bible has more books in the old testement then a non-Catholic Bible.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:57 PM   #2408
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Unless you're Catholic. Their Bible has more books in the old testement then a non-Catholic Bible.
Shows how much I know about the Old Testament. I didn't know that.

Protestant O.T. = 39 books http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/protold.stm

Catholic O.T. = 46 books http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/cathold.stm

Interesting. Did Martin Luther or others not like what they saw in 7 books?
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:15 PM   #2409
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From what I was told growing up, Martin Luther did not feel that those books were "inspired" by God/Holy Spirt. Growing up Catholic, I was told that Martin Luther was wrong. Those 7 little books have cause a great deal of friction in the world. Some of the differences between Catholics and Protestants are because of what is written in those books. (from what I remember growing up)

I am no longer a Catholic.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:19 PM   #2410
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I am no longer a Catholic.
You married a Protestant eh?
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:32 PM   #2411
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Pentacostal...
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Old 09-10-2012, 02:17 PM   #2412
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Originally Posted by thaskalos
It is because of comments like these that I fear this thread may never end.

There is a reason why some of us continue to ask the same questions of you over and over, Overlay...and that is because you and Boxcar have not provided reasonable answers for them.

You are trying to portray God as our "Heavenly Father"...even though the bible describes his behavior as being anything BUT "fatherly".

A good father does not openly discriminate against his "children"...by caring about the welfare of the few, while neglecting the many. Have you ever provided an answer for the question of why God picked the Jews as his "chosen" people...and why Jesus -- who repeatedly stated that his sole purpose on this earth was to 'save the lost sheep of Israel' -- would refer to outsiders as "dogs"? Is this an example of proper fatherhood?

You keep on telling us that all the catastrophies that have occurred on this planet have been..."the consequences of the sins of man"...and you state that the "severity of God's reaction" has been discussed previously. They HAVE been discussed previously...but they have not been explained ADEQUATELY!

If you and Boxcar would occasionaly utter an "I don't know" when discussing God and his actions, then I would not be so persistant in pushing for adequate answers; but you guys have not said "I don't know" even once...and act as if you know EXACTLY what God has in mind...and why he does what he does. So...would you mind explaining to me what you mean when you say that the "severity of God's reaction" to the sins of man have already been previously explained? WHERE?

There are millions of kids starving in this world right NOW...while millions more refuse to eat the delicious food that their parents give them, because "they don't like it". If God is retaliating against the starving kids because of their "sins"...is he rewarding American kids because of their "virtues"?

If he was benevolent enough to still the sun so Joshua and his men could fight their enemies in daylight...then why can't he provide for the starving kids of our world today?

Is there anything worse than been a starving kid in a poor country...while knowing that, in some other countries, we throw perfectly good food in the garbage?

You say that God showed his merciful nature by the fact that not all of humanity perished in the Flood.

And I suppose those German soldiers were displaying their "merciful nature", when they were lining up the Jewish prisoners...and they were only shooting SOME, instead of all of them...
We will never be able to have a productive discussion because you do not agree to a basic premise of Christianity: that every human being who has ever lived has been undeserving of God's love and favor strictly on their own merits, because of the sin that pervades every single person on Earth, as a result of which they (we) have ALL merited only eternal separation from God. When you appreciate the utter holiness of God, and the extent to which even the "best" (by our corrupted, fallen standards) human being comes short of that, you will be able to grasp the "amazing grace" ("grace" meaning favor and mercy that is completely undeserved) and love that God has nevertheless shown humanity by sacrificing His only Son to provide a means by which even the most heinous sin can be forgiven, and the pardoned perpetrator can be allowed to live eternally in God's presence.

Why did God decide to be merciful to a humanity (including even His "chosen people") that repeatedly forsook (and still forsakes) and disobeyed (and still disobeys) Him, and deserved (and continues to deserves) nothing but punishment as a result? I DON'T KNOW (there you go!), but He did.

And where does man's accountability for his own (sinful) actions figure in as a cause of your litany of the acknowleged woes present in the world? We have free will, and (although God has intervened and does intervene for good in human history in ways that we may not even be aware of) we are also agents by which God's will can either be facilitated and carried out, or else made more difficult to achieve.

Last edited by Overlay; 09-10-2012 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 09-10-2012, 02:57 PM   #2413
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Originally Posted by Overlay
Why did God decide to be merciful to a humanity (including even His "chosen people") that repeatedly forsook (and still forsakes) and disobeyed (and still disobeys) Him, and deserved (and continues to deserves) nothing but punishment as a result? I DON'T KNOW (there you go!), but He did.
God supposedly CREATED us, Overlay...and he chose to create us with many faults. What you and Boxcar perceive as great "sins" -- which deserve severe punishment -- are only transgressions, born from man's ignorance...both of life and of himself.

Man is not "sinful", as you say; he is IMPERFECT...simply because he is "human".

Are you telling me that a just and ever-loving God would create an imperfect being -- fraught with faults of every kind -- and then demand PERFECTION of him...otherwise he would banish him to "eternal damnation"?

THIS is your idea of a "Heavenly Father"?

If I were to believe in your version of Christianity, then I would have to accept that man is "sinful" and deserving of the worst type of punishment...when I see clearly that such is not the case.

Man is HUMAN...and that means he has FAULTS!

If God expects "perfection" from us...then he should have made us to be "Gods".

You are mistaking "faults" for "sins"...and that is unacceptable, IMO.

"Sins" may deserve punishment...but "faults" should be corrected...

A loving father would do no less for his children...IMO.
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Old 09-10-2012, 03:52 PM   #2414
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Originally Posted by thaskalos
God supposedly CREATED us, Overlay...and he chose to create us with many faults....If God expects "perfection" from us...then he should have made us to be "Gods".
Man was created sinless, and with the capacity and freedom to remain sinless, but also with free will that allowed him to choose to disobey and turn away from God, because otherwise he would not have been capable to freely choose to respond in love and gratitude to God for all that God had done for him. Unfortunately, humans used their free will to choose to sin and disobey God.

Quote:
Man is not "sinful", as you say; he is IMPERFECT...simply because he is "human". Are you telling me that a just and ever-loving God would create an imperfect being -- fraught with faults of every kind -- and then demand PERFECTION of him...otherwise he would banish him to "eternal damnation"?
I know that we all say, "I'm only human" as an excuse for imperfection, but that reflects our fallen condition. It wasn't true originally. If we were created imperfect (not just with the capacity to be imperfect, but already imperfect in God's eyes), it would not have been possible for God to conclude (as the Bible says He did after completing his creative work) that everything that He had created was "very good". And why would God have waited to punish man until after he had committed an overt act of disobedience, if man had already been created factually imperfect (not just with the free will to be imperfect if he chose to be), even before he took any actions at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
If I were to believe in your version of Christianity, then I would have to accept that man is "sinful" and deserving of the worst type of punishment...when I see clearly that such is not the case. Man is HUMAN...and that means he has FAULTS!...You are mistaking "faults" for "sins"...and that is unacceptable, IMO...."Sins" may deserve punishment...but "faults" should be corrected.
I don't see the distinction you're making between "sins" and "faults", nor does the Bible. There are degrees of sin from a human perspective, but anything short of moral perfection is the same in God's eyes. As the Bible says (James 2:10), the person who transgresses even the least of God's commandments is as guilty in God's eyes as if he had transgressed them all, even if he has kept all the others perfectly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
...A loving father would do no less for his children...IMO.
God does correct us (another sign of His love and concern for us) by letting us experience the unpleasant consequences of our actions (which can appear to us as "punishment") in order to provide an incentive to abandon those behaviors.
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Old 09-10-2012, 04:07 PM   #2415
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Originally Posted by hcap
http://www.4peaks.com/ppox.htm



"1. The Search for the Bull

In the pasture of this world,
I endlessly push aside the tall grasses in search of the bull.
Following unnamed rivers,
lost upon the interpenetrating paths of distant mountains,
My strength failing and my vitality exhausted,
I cannot find the bull.
I only hear the locusts chirring through the forest at night.

Comment: The bull never has been lost.
What need is there to search?
Only because of separation from my true nature,
I fail to find him.
In the confusion of the senses I lose even his tracks.
Far from home, I see many crossroads,
but which way is the right one I know not.
Greed and fear, good and bad, entangle me.
Alright. So, moving right along the animal chain, we have seen elephants and now bulls. I can't wait until you introduce us to wooly mammoths.

Quote:
Only because of separation from my true nature,
I fail to find him
So close to the truth, yet so far. (In fact, there is grain of truth to it.) The one thing about Eastern religions, they're all about ME. Virtually all introspection. But biblical Christianity says that sinners are "dead" because they are separated from God, which is what death is. Physical death is separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death is separation of a living soul from God. The Second Death is the separation of soul and body from God for all eternity.

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