Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

But your god is all knowing and all doing and all loving. He, she, it should have known from the moment A&E were first created, hell, from the moment god planned their creation, they would have fouled up their stay in Eden. Presenting a gigantic flaw in god's plans.

So why did an all loving deity take it out on all of mankind if he was the one who screwed up?

Worse, then knowing 10 generations later, a major do-over would be required because your flawed incompetent deity screwed up again, and slaughtered all life other than a few lucky exceptions by drowning?

Worse again, Jesus has not produced many sinless humans yet, and at some point only a smattering of god's children are going to be "saved" floating off into heaven? Call that an all loving god's justice?

There is a major problem in this entire house of cards. Which crumbles trying to conceive of an all knowing god and his creation endowed with "free-will" not living up to god's arbitrary rules and totally at odds with an all knowing and all loving deity passing "judgement"

None of this could be LITERALLY true. Nor was it meant to be taken literally.

You have seriously mangled what you do not understand.

Instead of grasping Jesus's message of not confusing the "map for the territory" like the scribes and the Pharisees did, the letter of the law for the spirit of the law, you are no better than a self inflated scribe.

"If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him!"

There was no flaw in God's plan. God gave Adam and Eve the power of free choice and he allowed them to exercise their will. (After all, he did not create puppets or computers.) In the grand scheme of things, God thought it better for them to go ahead and sin and gain the knowledge of good and evil because out of that evil, God would bring much good. Also, Man would have a much better and deeper understanding of who God is and what sacrificial love, compassion, mercy and justice is. If Adam had not sinned, mankind would never had had this kind of knowledge. They would have never known this side of God. (Remember: With the exception of love, in the visible, eternal kingdom of God, all these other things will pass away because when all the saints are experientially perfected in holiness the other attributes will no longer exist, for they become obsolete -- unnecessary.)

Jesus did the "do-over" at the Cross. Untold billions over the course of centuries have been saved either by looking forward to the coming Messiah by faith (OT saints) or looking back to his Cross by faith (NT saints). Numerous lives of born again believers have been transformed in this life (not to be confused with mere reform). Perfection comes in the next age at the general resurrection.

Your problem is that you're not reading GOD's map! Your map, cannot see that all the events in the OT happened for soteriological reasons. Your version of "how things should be according to your all-wise Hcap map" cannot see that Christ fulfilled all the Law and Prophets (OT), as he himself claimed. Your map cannot see that God's people have a glorious, eternal inheritance waiting for them that they get to share with Christ in the visible kingdom in which there is no more suffering, pain, sorrow, misery or death.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

There was no flaw in God's plan. God gave Adam and Eve the power of free choice and he allowed them to exercise their will. (After all, he did not create puppets or computers.) In the grand scheme of things, God thought it better for them to go ahead and sin and gain the knowledge of good and evil because out of that evil, God would bring much good. Also, Man would have a much better and deeper understanding of who God is and what sacrificial love, compassion, mercy and justice is.

But all knowing god knerw it was doomed from the moment he created one hair on Adam. God should have left better lesson plans and homework, so you all loving god wound up instructing their "free will" in a more educated way.

Did god also create man's ability to learn without including an expanded section on his arbitrary almost sadistic rules?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

But all knowing god knerw it was doomed from the moment he created one hair on Adam. God should have left better lesson plans and homework, so you all loving god wound up instructing their "free will" in a more educated way.

Did god also create man's ability to learn without including an expanded section on his arbitrary almost sadistic rules?

What was difficult to understand in Adam's test for righteousness? It wasn't as though God "burdened" Adam with all 637 laws of the Law of Moses. Adam was given only one command -- not to eat the fruit of a certain tree. What part of that prohibition and the promised penalty for disobedience don't you get?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

What was difficult to understand in Adam's test for righteousness? It wasn't as though God "burdened" Adam with all 637 laws of the Law of Moses. Adam was given only one command -- not to eat the fruit of a certain tree. What part of that prohibition and the promised penalty for disobedience don't you get?

Arbitrary rules.?

If you had children, you would know when they are old enough to speak, "why" and "how come" are major questions and a reasonable explanation goes a long way. Just "no" sets up a resonance of resistance.

But hey they are kids and still lovable if they do not understand.

This is where being able to count comes into play as FAR AS JUDGEMENT is concerned . I never murdered my child for not understanding.

Would you have?
Why would your all loving god?

Don't take it literally.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Arbitrary rules.?

If you had children, you would know when they are old enough to speak, "why" and "how come" are major questions and a reasonable explanation goes a long way. Just "no" sets up a resonance of resistance.

But hey they are kids and still lovable if they do not understand.

This is where being able to count comes into play as FAR AS JUDGEMENT is concerned . I never murdered my child for not understanding.

Would you have?
Why would your all loving god?

Don't take it literally.

But God did tell Adam "why" and "how come". "For in the day that you eat from it, you shall surely die."

What you wanted God to do was force our first parents to obey!

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But God did tell Adam "why" and "how come". "For in the day that you eat from it, you shall surely die."

What you wanted God to do was force our first parents to obey!

Why would a fruit be bad? That is an arbitrary ruling to say the least.

Hint: the fruit could have been a metaphor and god might have done a better job of this is "how come"

You surely have no idea whatsoever

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But God did tell Adam "why" and "how come". "For in the day that you eat from it, you shall surely die."

What you wanted God to do was force our first parents to obey!

What would we say about a parent who puts a bowl of fruit on the kitchen counter...and tells his kids that they will DIE if they eat any of it? Would such a parent ever win "Parent of the Year"?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Why would a fruit be bad? That is an arbitrary ruling to say the least.

Hint: the fruit could have been a metaphor and god might have done a better job of this is "how come"

You surely have no idea whatsoever

I explained this previously. The test wasn't about the fruit. The the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was simply the medium God used for the test. The essence of the test is whether or not Adam and Eve would trust God by taking him at his word.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

What would we say about a parent who puts a bowl of fruit on the kitchen counter...and tells his kids that they will DIE if they eat any of it? Would such a parent ever win "Parent of the Year"?

But Adam and Eve didn't die physically on the day they ate the fruit. This, too, has been explained previously.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But Adam and Eve didn't die physically on the day they ate the fruit. This, too, has been explained previously.

You conveniently avoided the point of my post. A parent places a bowl of fruit on the kitchen counter...and tells his kids not to eat the fruit under any circumstances. He comes home only to find that the kids have partaken of the "forbidden fruit". How severe of a punishment is this parent now justified in dishing out as a result of his kids' "disobedience"?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I explained this previously. The test wasn't about the fruit. The the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was simply the medium God used for the test. The essence of the test is whether or not Adam and Eve would trust God by taking him at his word.

The test?

So god tested his children, they fail and Adam's descendants acquire sin whether they deserve it or not?

For how many generations. How many grandchildren?
As I said you and your "all knowing", "all loving" god can't count.

There is no justice in that much punishment. Do the math.
Generations of grandkids are born sinners simply because their grandparents failed an "obedience" test?

You should re-think the god/father--- man/child analogy.
Use owner/pet

If god owned a kennel and two of his poochs wet the floor, would god beat their puppies for ever?

Or all cats' kittens, if their mama and papa cat meowed to receive attention, or chased mice around Eden all morning when god was busy creating new universes ?

[TJDave]

If you know the answers and punishment beforehand it’s not a test...it’s cruelty.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But God did tell Adam "why" and "how come". "For in the day that you eat from it, you shall surely die."

What you wanted God to do was force our first parents to obey!

Wow. Explanations just like my parents.

Me: Why can't I go out and play?

Parents: Because I said so that's why.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

Wow. Explanations just like my parents.

Me: Why can't I go out and play?

Parents: Because I said so that's why.

You: And what happens if I go out and play anyway?

Parents: You will suffer a spiritual and a bodily death.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by TJDave

If you know the answers and punishment beforehand it’s not a test...it’s cruelty.

Boxcar would say that it isn't "cruelty"; it's "holiness".