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Old 10-20-2020, 03:14 PM   #1
jay68802
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Art Collector to Dirt Mile

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...-cup-dirt-mile
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Old 10-20-2020, 04:24 PM   #2
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Feels like they are chasing at this point, these kind are ones I avoid.
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Old 10-20-2020, 04:50 PM   #3
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Feels like they are chasing at this point, these kind are ones I avoid.
Yep, plan B
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Old 10-20-2020, 05:11 PM   #4
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If the horse was doing well, why wouldn't they just go for the Classic? I see it as a lack of confidence.
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Old 10-20-2020, 05:29 PM   #5
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Feels like they are chasing at this point, these kind are ones I avoid.
I'm still waiting for the graded stakes committee to downgrade this to a Grade 2. There isn't really a mile division anyways. There are only 2 other Grade 1 miles the rest of the year and one is run 5 months before the BC and the other one is after the BC (when the BC is supposed to be the championship event).

The race at best serves as a springboard to up-and-coming types (Gun Runner, Accelerate, Liam's Map, City of Light), a prime opportunity for Grade 2/Grade 3 types (Dakota Phone, Tapizar, Furtherst Land), or a last ditch effort for horses on the downward slope (Dortmund, Discreet Cat, Omaha Beach).

At worse it takes away from the BC Sprint and the Classic (and even the turf Mile when it ran on synthetics).

The sad part is, horses retire partially on the strength of the win (Liam's Map, City of Light).

At any rate, in addition to this dreaded trend of training "up to the BC", what's with these Thanksgiving weekend races suddenly becoming alternatives to running in the BC (as opposed to running in both)?

I would think if Art Collector showed any form in the Dirt Mile they would run him back in the Clark, Cigar Mile, or Hollywood Derby.
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Old 10-20-2020, 06:00 PM   #6
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I'm still waiting for the graded stakes committee to downgrade this to a Grade 2. There isn't really a mile division anyways. There are only 2 other Grade 1 miles the rest of the year and one is run 5 months before the BC and the other one is after the BC (when the BC is supposed to be the championship event).

The race at best serves as a springboard to up-and-coming types (Gun Runner, Accelerate, Liam's Map, City of Light), a prime opportunity for Grade 2/Grade 3 types (Dakota Phone, Tapizar, Furtherst Land), or a last ditch effort for horses on the downward slope (Dortmund, Discreet Cat, Omaha Beach).

At worse it takes away from the BC Sprint and the Classic (and even the turf Mile when it ran on synthetics).

The sad part is, horses retire partially on the strength of the win (Liam's Map, City of Light).

At any rate, in addition to this dreaded trend of training "up to the BC", what's with these Thanksgiving weekend races suddenly becoming alternatives to running in the BC (as opposed to running in both)?

I would think if Art Collector showed any form in the Dirt Mile they would run him back in the Clark, Cigar Mile, or Hollywood Derby.
I agree with all of this except Liam's Map, whose connections notoriously ducked the Classic and American Pharoah and never ran again after.

The whole thing stinks IMO. Nobody wants to run any more, or at least few do. You'd think campaigns like that of Swiss Skydiver would open some eyes, but it won't. For some reason losses have become unacceptable. Used to love Thanksgiving weekend where many BC horses, including winners, would run again. We'll be lucky to see 10 total do it now at CD, AQU, and DMR combined.
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Old 10-20-2020, 08:58 PM   #7
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They used to breed to race. Now they breed to breed. Pay a ton for a horse. Run once or twice. Then retire with an excuse and get your money back + in the shed. Because after all he’s “ well bred”.
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:41 PM   #8
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The suddenly new money Knicks Go appears in the Dirt Mile for Brad "Ben Jones had nothing on me" Cox.
Suspect he'll be the ultimate wiseguy dude come BC Saturday.
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Old 10-21-2020, 12:20 AM   #9
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I believe the owners can't accept losing like they did in the old days. Swiss has given Peter Callahan one last shot and I think that is why the coast to coast tour with a horse that can standup to the rigors of a lot of serious racing.
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Old 10-21-2020, 10:09 AM   #10
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I'm disappointed about the way things are going for this horse. I had reason to feel confident he was even better than he looked on paper. But once he went bad, it started feeling more like that they were trying to salvage the season rather than give him the extra time he may have needed to get back to 100% again. Obviously I'm not the trainer or a vet and don't know what's going on. I could also have initially just been wrong about his ability. However, it doesn't feel like this horse is doing as well now as he was earlier in the year, yet they are still trying to run through it. IMO, the horse that was well beaten in the Preakness was not the same horse we saw earlier and this is not a sign of confidence. We'll see how he works going into the race.
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Old 10-21-2020, 10:11 AM   #11
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I like the dirt mile. It’s usually a good betting race with competitive fields. It’s last ten runnings won by only two favorites(Lians Map and Goldencents). We all know that it’s not the same caliber as the classic or sprint, but for one it gives horses, that people want to see, a chance to show up and be cheered by the crowd. Mine That Bird, Shackleford , Pants on Fire, Golden Ticket; these wouldn’t have a shot in the other races. Some people might say they shouldn't be there but this is entertainment, isn't it?
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Old 10-21-2020, 12:49 PM   #12
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I think the BC Mile still deserves Grade 1 status.

I think it's more a matter of it not being anywhere near the caliber of the Classic. I consider the Classic to be more like a Grade 1+ or Grade 1++ compared to the typical Grade 1 we see during the year. If you grade the BC Mile relative to the typical Grade 1, it stands up most years. We run a lot of mediocre Grade 1s these days compared to years ago.

As to whether we need it, it does have the detrimental effect of taking some high quality versatile horses out of the Sprint and Classic. But in most cases I think those horses were not serious contenders (at least for the Classic) or the connections felt they were disadvantaged because the distance was too long or short in the Sprint or Classic.

The one obvious recent exception is the one CJ brought up.

That was Liam's Map.

You can argue that 10F was not ideal for him in a race with another extremely high quality speed horse, but that was far from conclusive. Ducking American Pharoah may or may not have been the right economic move, but it was bad for fans and deprived of us seeing what American Pharaoah would have done against the best older horse. That's not the way to make new fans or demonstrate greatness. For all we know, Liam's Map would have put him away, blown him out and his own reputation as a racehorse would be wildly enhanced. Maybe we would have seen one of the all time great stretch drives between 2 champions. Maybe Pharoah would have crushed and any remaining doubters would have had to admit they were wrong.
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Old 10-21-2020, 01:09 PM   #13
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They used to breed to race. Now they breed to breed. Pay a ton for a horse. Run once or twice. Then retire with an excuse and get your money back + in the shed. Because after all he’s “ well bred”.

The irony is that this was EXACTLY what the breeders cup was created to avoid. There's too much money in the breeding. BC purses have not increased at the same rate as stud fees. The tail is wagging the dog.
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Old 10-21-2020, 11:14 PM   #14
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I think the BC Mile still deserves Grade 1 status.

I think it's more a matter of it not being anywhere near the caliber of the Classic. I consider the Classic to be more like a Grade 1+ or Grade 1++ compared to the typical Grade 1 we see during the year. If you grade the BC Mile relative to the typical Grade 1, it stands up most years. We run a lot of mediocre Grade 1s these days compared to years ago.
It's supposed to be a championship event--for a division that does not exist on the main track in this country--not a dust up between Grade 3 types, top class horses on the decline, layoff horses rounding to form and some cute attempts at padding the stallion resume.

Put it on the undercard where it belongs. They used to run both a 7f Stakes and a 9f Stakes on the under card at the BC in previous years under various names (Smile, Sunday Silence, Skywalker, Seabiscuit). This mock Grade 1 is purely for the commercial breeders to be able to advertise yet another "BC winner" (if a 7yo Grade 3-calibur gelding doesn't upstage the proceedings).

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As to whether we need it, it does have the detrimental effect of taking some high quality versatile horses out of the Sprint and Classic. But in most cases I think those horses were not serious contenders (at least for the Classic) or the connections felt they were disadvantaged because the distance was too long or short in the Sprint or Classic.
Something is wrong when Preakness winners, Hollywood Gold Cup winners, Travers winners, Woodward winners, Whitney winners, Donn winners, and Haskell winners are skipping the Classic to run in the Big Ass Dirt Mile...never mind all the Forego winners, Triple Bend winners, Ancient Title winners, DeFrancis Dash winners, skipping the Sprint.

...and something is worse when horses like Dakota Phone, Furthest Land, Tamarkuz, and Tapizar are "BC winners".

If the charade is going to continue, at the very least they should make the Oklahoma and BC Columbia Derbies Win-And-You're-In events for the Dirt Mile...

Just think of the reverse:

-Precisionist in the Dirt Mile 3 straight years instead of an awesome display of versatility winning the Sprint and placing in the Classic in back-to-back years
-Black Tie Affair in the Dirt Mile 3 straight years instead of an awesome display of versatility winning the Classic after placing in the Sprint the previous year
-Gulch and Afleet passing on the 1988 Sprint so that Play The King and Olympic Prospect couldn't battle it out for supremacy of Grade 3 sprinters
-Smile opting out of the 1986 Sprint after placing as a 3yo in 1985 so that Pine Tree Lane and Bedside Promise could duel for the sprint Eclipse
-A.P. Indy ducking the Classic after 2 straight losses to salvage his reputation before heading to stud
-Tiznow opting for the Dirt Mile in 2001 because he'd been laid up most of the year and lost both his comeback starts
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Old 10-22-2020, 01:02 AM   #15
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I think it’s realistic entry. The Classic will be salty this year. With the schedule the 3 yo had they may not be a good bet. Maybe I’m wrong but the older division may have the jump this year. The Improbables, Max , Tom have not raced a lot but for them that’s almost better. They’re already good to go on experience.

Art Probably has no shot in the big race

I kind of think the older will run at least one , two....

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