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Old 10-18-2021, 12:31 PM   #151
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Cause and effect make tons of sense to me, as everything, on some level we do or don't comprehend, constitutes a scientific reaction to stimulus. But it has been proven that certain super-small components of matter behave in a random manner. Which does not support determinism.
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Old 10-18-2021, 12:48 PM   #152
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No, the immutable love the Father had for the Son could never change, any more than God-incarnate could ever sin! (Meditate on this truth.) But it doesn't follow that the Father cannot love the Son because his character is just as holy and righteous as his. If God could love anyone who is less than him morally, i.e. who falls short of his glory (Rom 3:23), then this would make him a sinner! It would make him flawed. It would make him incomplete; for he would be loving someone who is imperfect. He would be loving imperfection itself (sin, corruption)! This is precisely why God's love for repentant sinners must be grounded in Christ's perfections -- because Jesus never fell short of God's glory. In fact, this is also precisely why none of God's born again children can ever lose their salvation, since both God's love and his grace toward the elect find their ground in Christ! This is why to a true believer Jesus Christ is EVERYTHING to him in the fullest sense of this term.

As I suggested the other day, did you read the messianic 91st Psalm? Ponder verse 9 which starts off with "IF".
Obvious stuff. "No one comes to the Father but through me".

We're talking past each other again. You come around to implicitly agreeing that the Father and Son are eternally of one will and mind, rather than the Father's love for the Son being contingent, and then lecture me on my own point.

It's my understanding that the Westminster Confession of Faith, in describing the attributes of God, doesn't mention "Love". Nor does Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion (roughly 2000 pgs.) ever cite 1 Jn 4:8, 4:16... https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/1Jn4.8
...The inner life of the Trinity is a weak area for the Calvinist.
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Old 10-18-2021, 12:50 PM   #153
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Cause and effect make tons of sense to me, as everything, on some level we do or don't comprehend, constitutes a scientific reaction to stimulus. But it has been proven that certain super-small components of matter behave in a random manner. Which does not support determinism.
For many free will deniers, randomness is not free will, either.
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Old 10-18-2021, 01:12 PM   #154
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Obvious stuff. "No one comes to the Father but through me".

We're talking past each other again. You come around to implicitly agreeing that the Father and Son are eternally of one will and mind, rather than the Father's love for the Son being contingent, and then lecture me on my own point.
Which is precisely why the God the Father can love God the Son.

Doesn't true biblical love issue forth in obedience, as its highest expression? Jesus certainly seemed to think so, not only in Jn 10:17 but also in Jn 14:15. So, all Jesus is doing in the former passage is essentially saying that his Father loves him because the Son loves him! But he stated his love for the Father in a way that would be outward and observable to the entire world -- the Cross!

Quote:
It's my understanding that the Westminster Confession of Faith, in describing the attributes of God, doesn't mention "Love". Nor does Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion (roughly 2000 pgs.) ever cite 1 Jn 4:8, 4:16... https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/1Jn4.8
...The inner life of the Trinity is a weak area for the Calvinist.
I wouldn't know about that. Never studied either work. I have all I can do to handle the eternal Word of God -- and I still have a long way to to.
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Old 10-18-2021, 02:13 PM   #155
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Here's something for you to ponder, Doc. Meditate on this passage and search the scriptures to see if this formerly blind man was right when he told the Pharisees:

John 9:31
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
KJV

If God can't even lend his ear to an unrepentant sinner, how can he love him? Or was the man wrong?
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Old 10-18-2021, 05:54 PM   #156
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Here's something for you to ponder, Doc. Meditate on this passage and search the scriptures to see if this formerly blind man was right when he told the Pharisees:

John 9:31
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
KJV

If God can't even lend his ear to an unrepentant sinner, how can he love him? Or was the man wrong?
You agree that one verse is taken in the context of all of scripture. One could argue that even in the case of Divine election God's initiative, his grace as an expression of his life and love (am I right?), is extended to those who "were still sinners" (Rom 5:8, as I already cited).

The same adjective for God's "kindness" in Rom 2:4, which leads one to repentance...https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Ro2.4
...is used in Lk 6:36, where God is "kind" to the ungrateful and the selfish, in the context of imitating God by loving one's "enemies".
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Old 10-18-2021, 07:26 PM   #157
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You agree that one verse is taken in the context of all of scripture. One could argue that even in the case of Divine election God's initiative, his grace as an expression of his life and love (am I right?), is extended to those who "were still sinners" (Rom 5:8, as I already cited).

The same adjective for God's "kindness" in Rom 2:4, which leads one to repentance...https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Ro2.4
...is used in Lk 6:36, where God is "kind" to the ungrateful and the selfish, in the context of imitating God by loving one's "enemies".
Oh boy...you got off on a tangent. So, you're saying that I'm misinterpreting Jn 9:31 because I've taken the verse out of context? Yes or no?
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Old 10-19-2021, 01:18 AM   #158
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Oh boy...you got off on a tangent. So, you're saying that I'm misinterpreting Jn 9:31 because I've taken the verse out of context? Yes or no?
Well, I think you know I was referring to the "analogy of faith"...https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...logyfaith.html ...and that you are dodging. But yes, you also take the verse out of context, as well as inserting your own word "unrepentant". At least Augustine would have said so...
"He speaks still as one only anointed. For God hears even sinners. For if God heard not sinners, in vain would the publican, casting his eyes on the ground, and smiting on his breast, have said, Lord, be merciful to me a sinner. And that confession merited justification, as this blind man enlightenment" (Homilies on John, 44:13).

In the context of the whole of ch.9, if Jesus were a sinner (the claim of his opponents in ch.9) God would not have "heard" him and allowed the miracle.

I'm going with the "Doctor of Grace". Have the last word.
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Old 10-19-2021, 11:06 AM   #159
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Well, I think you know I was referring to the "analogy of faith"...https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...logyfaith.html ...and that you are dodging. But yes, you also take the verse out of context, as well as inserting your own word "unrepentant". At least Augustine would have said so...
"He speaks still as one only anointed. For God hears even sinners. For if God heard not sinners, in vain would the publican, casting his eyes on the ground, and smiting on his breast, have said, Lord, be merciful to me a sinner. And that confession merited justification, as this blind man enlightenment" (Homilies on John, 44:13).

In the context of the whole of ch.9, if Jesus were a sinner (the claim of his opponents in ch.9) God would not have "heard" him and allowed the miracle.

I'm going with the "Doctor of Grace". Have the last word.
Oy vey...okay, let's do this...slowly.

First of all, I qualified my question with the word "unrepentant" sinner for purpose of clarity. I know what the healed blind man meant when he said, "God doesn't hear sinners...", but many others here might not have. They might have thought that God doesn't hear the prayers of any sinner, which is not true (Lk 18:10-14). (I'm happy as a little piglet rolling in the mud that Augustine agrees with me. ) Not only this, but the healed blind man did rightly add that God listens to the godly man who does his will! And Jesus taught this, as well, in his parable in Luke 18! So, it isn't as though God doesn't hear any sinner whatsoever, but he only hears the one whose heart is right before the Almighty -- in other words, a repentant sinner.

Now, if you had used the "analogy of faith" hermeneutical principle to interpret Jn 9:31, you would have known that the man was 100% on the mark! This man's understanding of prayer was solidly grounded in many OT scriptures (cf. Job 27:8-9; 35:12; 42:8; Ps 18:41; 34:15; 66:18-20; Prov 1:29-29; 15:29; 21:13; 28:9; Isa 1:15; 58:9; Jer 11:11; 14:12; Ezk 8:18; Mic 3:4, Zech 7:13) God hears only sinners with a contrite heart and broken spirit (Ps 51:17). The acceptable sacrifices of God are precisely this kind of spiritual condition.

The one passage that jumps out to me the most among all the ones cited above is this one because it speaks directly and poignantly to the heart issue:

Ps 66:18-20
8 If I had cherished sin in my heart,
the Lord would not have listened;
19 but God has surely listened
and heard my voice in prayer.
20 Praise be to God,
who has not rejected my prayer
or withheld his love from me!

NIV

So, not only was the psalmist confident that God heard his prayer, but he was equally confident that God loved him! Why did God love him? Because the psalmist did not cherish sin in his heart! This is, yet, another qualified statement pertaining to God's love!

And this is what I have argued from the beginning. From the start I have maintained that God cannot love an unrepentant sinner any more than he can love sin because sin resides in the human heart and proceeds from it (Mat 15:18-20). Man's heart is the home to all sin. Yeah...it is the polluted fountain of all sin! It's the dark cesspool of all sin! It's impossible, therefore, to separate sin from the human heart! This is why scripture teaches that God "hates" sinners and why there are so many other passages that qualify God's love.

Given what we have seen, thus far, is it any wonder why a key New Covenant promise made by God to his covenant people is that he would give them a new heart and a new spirit (Ezek 36:26)? God has to give his chosen people a new heart and the Holy Spirit in order that they be made acceptable to him!

One last thing since you accused me of taking Jn 9:31 out of context. The passage makes it abundantly plain that the healed blind man didn't know who Jesus really was until his second encounter with him, which he had after his encounter with the Pharisees! The healed blind man thought that Jesus was just a prophet of God (Jn 9:17). He certainly acknowledged that God must have been with Jesus, otherwise how could he have performed such a miracle? So up to that point, this man thought Jesus was just another man -- a godly man to be sure but nonetheless still a sinner.
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Old 10-20-2021, 11:43 AM   #160
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I'm nearly done presenting arguments from Jesus' own mouth about the true nature of God's love. Here are more of Jesus' qualified statements about who the objects of his Father's and his own love are. So, in addition to Jn 14:21 which I shared the other day, we have this text:

John 14:23
23... "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
NIV

Notice carefully how Jesus makes the inextricable link between love and the obedience that naturally flows from it. Could Jesus have said it any plainer that both he and his Father love only those who love him and keep his commandments?

And I have repeatedly said that Jesus' "theology" is solidly grounded in the Law and the Prophets.

Ex 20:6; Deut 5:10
6... but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
ESV

There's one more text I want to share -- more words from Jesus' own lips but I have forgotten the address, so I'll have to look for it.
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Old 10-20-2021, 12:49 PM   #161
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Hey, Doc, I forgot to mention this passage yesterday when dealing with the prayers of sinners. Have you ever wondered why Jesus, in his High Priestly prayer to his Father, prayed only for the elect and not the world?

John 17:9
9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
NIV

I think my post 159 goes a long way in answering that question.
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Old 10-20-2021, 01:09 PM   #162
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I'm nearly done presenting arguments from Jesus' own mouth about the true nature of God's love. Here are more of Jesus' qualified statements about who the objects of his Father's and his own love are. So, in addition to Jn 14:21 which I shared the other day, we have this text:

John 14:23
23... "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
NIV

Notice carefully how Jesus makes the inextricable link between love and the obedience that naturally flows from it. Could Jesus have said it any plainer that both he and his Father love only those who love him and keep his commandments?

And I have repeatedly said that Jesus' "theology" is solidly grounded in the Law and the Prophets.

Ex 20:6; Deut 5:10
6... but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
ESV

There's one more text I want to share -- more words from Jesus' own lips but I have forgotten the address, so I'll have to look for it.
I'll be giving my full attention to Keeneland very soon and was leaving you to your own devices, but can't resist.

You're twisting yourself in knots. Did you forget the "U" in TULIP? There is no condition of man that merits God's love. God's initiative, out of love for man, in saving man is by necessity to man who cannot love God and keep the commandments consistently (your Total Depravity).
After regeneration, I don't know who is disagreeing with you about the "conditional" aspects of Divine love...

https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Mt25.31

But I do appreciate the text attesting to infused grace (Jn 14:23).
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Old 10-20-2021, 02:48 PM   #163
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I'll be giving my full attention to Keeneland very soon and was leaving you to your own devices, but can't resist.

You're twisting yourself in knots. Did you forget the "U" in TULIP? There is no condition of man that merits God's love. God's initiative, out of love for the God- Man, in saving man is by necessity to man who cannot love God and keep the commandments consistently (your Total Depravity).
After regeneration, I don't know who is disagreeing with you about the "conditional" aspects of Divine love...

https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Mt25.31

But I do appreciate the text attesting to infused grace (Jn 14:23).
I FTFY above.

Also, the "U" in Unconditional Election is spot on because man cannot meet God's conditions due to his sin nature,. Therefore, on the vertical level (between God and humanity) Divine Sovereign Election must logically be unconditional. However, this doesn't mean that on the horizontal level (between the Father and Son in eternity) that God's election, which is motivated by the Father's Love for the Son, is not conditioned upon the Son's perfect obedience to his Father's will in time and space, which would ultimately result in the Son redeeming a people for his Father, whereby that act of redemption would manifest the Father's eternal love for his elect in Christ. This is the Greatest Paradox of all the Ages! We know this to be irrefutably true because there could be no salvation apart from the Son's perfect obedience to his Father's will. God's love for his elect finds it's only justification in that perfect, loving, joyful obedience of the Son. (This is why there is no other name under heaven by which men must be saved, cf. Act 4:12)!

What I have just stated is what will drive God's elect to the Father in faith and repentance, as they plead the sinless life and the atoning work of the Son on the Cross. This Greatest of all Paradoxes, when by God's sovereign grace is understood rightly and appropriated with genuine, heart-held faith , is what will cause the greatest of sinners to repent with a contrite heart and broken spirit and to storm the Kingdom of Heaven by force (Mat 11:12, Lk 16:16) in the Mighty Name of the Spotless Lamb of God who was slain before the foundation of the world.
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Old 10-21-2021, 01:26 AM   #164
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I FTFY above.

Also, the "U" in Unconditional Election is spot on because man cannot meet God's conditions due to his sin nature,. Therefore, on the vertical level (between God and humanity) Divine Sovereign Election must logically be unconditional. However, this doesn't mean that on the horizontal level (between the Father and Son in eternity) that God's election, which is motivated by the Father's Love for the Son, is not conditioned upon the Son's perfect obedience to his Father's will in time and space, which would ultimately result in the Son redeeming a people for his Father, whereby that act of redemption would manifest the Father's eternal love for his elect in Christ. This is the Greatest Paradox of all the Ages! We know this to be irrefutably true because there could be no salvation apart from the Son's perfect obedience to his Father's will. God's love for his elect finds it's only justification in that perfect, loving, joyful obedience of the Son. (This is why there is no other name under heaven by which men must be saved, cf. Act 4:12)!

What I have just stated is what will drive God's elect to the Father in faith and repentance, as they plead the sinless life and the atoning work of the Son on the Cross. This Greatest of all Paradoxes, when by God's sovereign grace is understood rightly and appropriated with genuine, heart-held faith , is what will cause the greatest of sinners to repent with a contrite heart and broken spirit and to storm the Kingdom of Heaven by force (Mat 11:12, Lk 16:16) in the Mighty Name of the Spotless Lamb of God who was slain before the foundation of the world.
Thanks for the response. It's a systematic theology that interprets, from certain passages, some of which you cite, that Christ died only for the elect. We can all cite scripture, such as Christ dying for all men, universal salvation..
1 Tim 2:4 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved", Mt 18:14, the great commission to all nations Mt 28:19 , preach to whole creation Mk 16:15, Acts 10:34 "every nation", "every man's conscience" 2 Cor 4:2, "for the salvation of all men" Tit 2:11; prayers, etc. for all men, for kings (Nero at the time!) 1 Tim 2:1-2, 1 Jn 2:2 Christ is the "expiation...for the sins of the whole world", etc.

Proof texting seldom solves anything, as shown in the two devout Calvinists who came to different biblical opinions about fetal stem cell research, if you recall. Comes down to authority. Thanks for all the responses, and peace to you.
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Old 10-21-2021, 03:29 AM   #165
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Oy vey...
You converted! Mazel tov!
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