Incident in the SAR TEST Stakes

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Agreed. Another piece of evidence to the above is the persistent shortening of major races from classic distances to no further than 9 furlongs. This creates a vicious cycle because now those fragile speed types have been catered to & have an advantage in those races.

The fact that it's a vicious cycle seems to have gone over of the head of most of the industry. They say horses can't run far anymore. So they shorten the races, but that puts an even bigger premium on speed instead of stamina. Then they wonder why the next generation wants to run even shorter.

They can't just run a few marathon races like they do now and expect it to change anything. They have really jack up the purses of those races despite the mediocre quality initially. Then as they get stronger over time as people chase those big purses eventually give a few of them Grade 1 status. That at least creates an incentive to try to run long and breed for stamina. It will take awhile to turn the ship around, but imo it can be done. The bigger problem is whether they want to.

[Mr_Ed]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Of the horses you listed, Zenyatta is the only example that fits your suggestions to improve the sport. She didn't start racing until late in her 3yo year.

Beholder ran 5 times at 2 & won the Eclipse as Champion 2yo.

California Chrome ran 7 times at 2.

John Henry ran 11 times at 2.

My buddy, Seabiscuit, ran 32x as a 2YO. However, many were training miles due to being a lazy ass

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

The fact that it's a vicious cycle seems to have gone over of the head of most of the industry. They say horses can't run far anymore. So they shorten the races, but that puts an even bigger premium on speed instead of stamina. Then they wonder why the next generation wants to run even shorter.

They can't just run a few marathon races like they do now and expect it to change anything. They have really jack up the purses of those races despite the mediocre quality initially. Then as they get stronger over time as people chase those big purses eventually give a few of them Grade 1 status. That at least creates an incentive to try to run long and breed for stamina. It will take awhile to turn the ship around, but imo it can be done. The bigger problem is whether they want to.

I said the same thing in the other thread. It won't be an easy fix. Too many unsound horses (I believe it was poster Phantom on Tour who mentioned Unbridled's Song, an unsound horse whose offspring have only hurt the breed) in the bloodlines now. Not to be negative again, but this is actually a complicated problem which has no simple, easy fix. Breeding is based on making money NOW and I'm not sure enough breeders care about what happens 10 years from now. Seemingly everything in racing is run that way---the challenges are so vast (many self-inflicted of course) that they're trying to just survive today.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by $w1fT

What does the trainer record have to do with this?

It is my understanding that the trainer is a cancer survivor and is just now getting back to her career.
https://www.timesunion.com/saratogag...e-16428925.php

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by VeryOldMan

Speed trumps all and there's a willingness to accept leading stallions with relatively few lifetime starts. Not sure it's possible to turn this battleship around in time.

Full steam ahead with your battleship.

A share in the stallion Not This Time just sold for $2 million tonight.

A half brother to the fragile Unbridled's Song stallion Liam's Map, Not This Time started just 4 times. He was retired with a soft tissue problem just a couple weeks after running 2nd in the BC Juvenile.

His first crop was highlighted by Princess Noor, who notably pulled up with a career-ending soft tissue injury late in her 2yo season.

His second crop was highlighted by Travers winner Epicenter, who notably pulled up with a career ending fracture in the BC Classic at the end of his 3yo season.

[MargieRose]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Of the horses you listed, Zenyatta is the only example that fits your suggestions to improve the sport. She didn't start racing until late in her 3yo year.

Beholder ran 5 times at 2 & won the Eclipse as Champion 2yo.

California Chrome ran 7 times at 2.

John Henry ran 11 times at 2.

I wouldn't opposed to toning down the money & prestige available for 2yo racing (which plays into the hands of certain mega-stables that are only interested in producing stallions), but 2yo racing in general is not the cause of racing's problems.

It might be that we simply need better trainers & more conscientious breeders.

Until stamina and longevity is bred back into the Thoroughbred, IMHO, most of the 2-year-olds of today are too fragile for the rigors of early-age racing. Build them up; then bring them back.

BTW, California Chrome is a perfect example of old-days' strength and stamina; but, a lot of the horseracing industry didn't respect him.

Stick with breeding for speed, stick with injury or worse, stick with early retirement...all at what ultimate cost?

[Sysonby]

Originally Posted by MargieRose

Are the Offspring of Unbridled’s Song Really Unsound?

Comments:
Breed out fragility:

Ban all two-year-old racing; late-season three-year-old racing, maybe; breed for stamina, not speed.

Be willing to bend for the sake of the horse, or lose the sport altogether and have nothing!

So the issue of two year old racing has been studied repeatedly. These were the findings in every single study. Horses who were given age-appropriate training and racing at two had sounder careers and were more likely to retire sound. This was studied with horses running on both dirt and turf, horses running in North America, Australia and England. In the case of a Zenyatta who had an unusual amount of microfracturing due to growth spurts from two to three, you hold off for a bit but for most horses waiting till three isn't doing them any favors.

[bisket]

Your best distance runners are fast moving gallopers. I hear the negativity towards unbridled song, but he was a fast galloper. His son Arrogate owns 1 1/4 mile track record at Saratoga. I’m wondering what we’re going to see from his grandson Arcangelo in a few weeks. Arcangelo has shown signs of a similar ability. The recent loss of Arrogate was a big blow.

[VeryOldMan]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Full steam ahead with your battleship.

A share in the stallion Not This Time just sold for $2 million tonight.

Saw last week's announcement that Two Phil's will enter stud next year.

All of 10 lifetime starts and retired due to a leg injury.

Full steam ahead indeed.

[burnsy]

The question is …. Are you retiring early with a low amount of starts to make money ? Everyone knows the horse is fast and most likely possesses speed or forward position while racing . Or ……. Does the horse have issues and the clock is running out on racing at all due to these issues .

Cause everytime it’s the latter , the problem expands . Face it , speed sells and people are gambling they get the next fast horse. At this point the gene pool is an afterthought. You can race 6 or 7 times and make a fortune sound or not . And do people really think drugs fix this ? Or in reality the drugs temporarily cover it up .

[cj]

Originally Posted by VeryOldMan

Saw last week's announcement that Two Phil's will enter stud next year.

All of 10 lifetime starts and retired due to a leg injury.

Full steam ahead indeed.

Ten isn't bad compared to many others we've seen recently.

[VeryOldMan]

Originally Posted by cj

Ten isn't bad compared to many others we've seen recently.

I suspect you can Justify that statement . . .

[classhandicapper]

I don't know the economics of breeding at the higher levels, but the sport is clearly run for the benefit of breeder's and rich owners. Other than the very best mares that can earn more racing than breeding, the races are almost like a pain in the ass way for them to enhance the value of the horse and its offspring so they can keep selling horses back and forth to each other for ever greater sums.