The Greatest of All Time - Bob Baffert

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by castaway01

The vast majority of the time, the "the groom peed in the food", "the dog ate my homework", "I didn't realize my Derby contender was injected with this illegal dose" is BS. Those who try to explain it away are running errands for people who think you're a sucker and a fool.

Honestly, if someone like Baffert was "real", he would be amazing for the game. And of course that's what the powers that be want, to not have this well-spoken, well-groomed, well-dressed guy be guilty.

The same dynamic was in play when Mark McGwire was caught with androstenedione when he was hitting all those home runs. Baseball so wanted what McGwire was doing to be real, so nothing was done.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

Amazing how many people I see already picking this horse to win the race.

if he aint doped how is he winning?

If all he had working to his advantage in the Derby was the betamethasone, the amount in his blood suggests it was used in that window area around 7-14 days prior or the Derby or he's telling the truth about the ointment. That's not performance enhancing according to what I've read. Any advantage was probably gained by getting any swelling down and being able to train him harder before the Derby. Coming back on two weeks rest I doubt much training was scheduled for this race anyway. If he was actually "off" in any way he wouldn't run or get past the vet.

He obviously can lose just like any other horse, but that won't automatically mean it was lack of drugs. To me the risk is that the positive indicated some other drug was used. But that has been shot down by a few vets that know way more than I do.

[classhandicapper]

Does anyone know what the rules are for betamethasone at Pimlico?

It would be hilarious (in a negative way) if the amount in his blood at CD is legal Pimlico. It would just highlight another absurd problem in the sport.

[pandy]

Originally Posted by paulbenny

I worked for large CPA firms, and big hospitality public companies, and am on my own. I did not say Baffert is innocent. He should be punished. I am saying that this is disproportionate to the other situations out there that have been going on a long time. You have to read what I stated earlier. He definitely should be ousted from the win if the split comes up positive.



The notion that this is like Lance Armstrong is ridiculous. I am indifferent to this guy, Bob Baffert. I just believe people are jumping to conclusions on his entire career now. If that is the case, lets list out Pletcher is this too. He must have been suspended or had a positive right? Lukas was not being treated this way from what I can tell. The Phipps stable is not going to run against him? Where were they when Navarro was on video with the juice owner. People are playing politics.

I think the comparison to Lance Armstrong is a good one. Lance Armstrong performed in a manner that looked improbable, if not impossible. Baffert has had several horses, especially in recent years, do the same thing, they run insanely powerful races where they go to the lead, set fast paces and never get tired. Pletcher never has horses that run like that. If they go fast early, they get tired. That's the way thoroughbreds run. You have to take into consideration the 7 horses that dropped dead in a 16 month period. That would never happen to someone like Pletcher, Motion, Clement, McGaughey, and other great trainers, it never has and it never would because they don't dope their horses up. And the other thing about Baffert is the way the industry has protected him, which smacks of corruption. When Justify tested positive after the Santa Anita Derby, and the CHRB hid it so he could qualify for the Kentucky Derby, that was corruption, plain and simple. And keep in mind, after the 7 horses died, the CHRB did nothing. And then you look at the Oaklawn posititives. After the split sample testing, the drugs in the two horses systems was much higher than the original tests. But Oaklawn actually reversed their original decision and gave the purse money back to Baffert's owners. This is the industries fault for protecting Baffert for many years and now it's going to bite them in the ass.

[Elkchester Road]

Originally Posted by SG4

I think Drape must be paid a bonus per negative adjective he uses per article nowadays. Last few years it's been incredibly frustrating to read NYT's (meager) coverage of horse racing. I know it seems prescient now, but considering his day-of recap of the Derby began with "On another first Saturday in May, the beauty of America’s oldest sport battled neck and neck down the stretch with its unseemliness..." it'd be nice if his recap could make it 1 single line without going negative. Article never mentioned the humble beginnings of this horse, how he could've been had for $1000, all things that were nice stories & actually related to the winner. For a recap of the race there didn't need to be multiple paragraphs about Sheikh Mohammed or even a mention of Jason Servis' name, but that's how they handle racing.

As a huge fan of Thoroughbred Racing, I say this...Thoroughbred Racing brought (and continues to bring) this on themselves.

[Andy Asaro]

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.co...t-explanation/

Excerpt:

Baffert has claimed that he's the victim of a systemic drug testing problem within the industry, and seems to have suggested he might be the subject of more deliberate efforts to tarnish his name. How likely is it that a sample was tampered with or that a testing error, deliberate or otherwise, was made?

I'm going to say highly improbable–very, very slim. There are multiple people in the test barn at any one time, and there are multiple people in the sample processing area at any one time. So, the thought that somebody would be able to successfully introduce something into a blood or urine sample without being detected, that I think is most unlikely.

Secondly, sort of as an aside, the RMTC has what's called an external quality assurance program where a couple of times a year we send sets of samples to each laboratory, and we pay another laboratory–one that's certified to do this–to put specific concentrations of substances into these blood and urine samples.

We may instruct 0.5 micrograms of [phenylbutazone, or bute] in a blood sample. Well, that requires very precise measurements and instrumentation–it's not like you just take a drop of injectable bute and plunk it into the test tube and say, 'there it is.' Doing something like that would result in extraordinarily high concentrations that would raise eyebrows and lead people to question the validity of the sample right there and then.

To tamper a sample with the addition of 21 picograms per milliliter? Say there's 6 milliliters of serum in that tube–what's that, 126 picograms of betamethasone? That's not easy to do. It's just not. There would be a large margin of error.

One of the first things you'd do if you saw a sample that high is look at the urine sample, and if there wasn't a corresponding concentration in the urine, you'd say, 'well, something's wrong here, this is not an accurate representation of what's in the horse. We need to notify the commission and decide how best to proceed.'

So, it would require two samples to be tampered with, and tampered with in such a way that concentrations of the substance present in such a way that would be complementary of each. And that to me would be tremendously difficult.

[paulbenny]

I think if they stated we are going to hang Bob to make an example of him, and make up for the CHRB issue, I would be fine. If they added we have undeniable proof Bob has been using Performance Enhancing Drugs on his horses for years, and that is evidence by his horses running really fast and then not quitting and dropping dead I would be fine. Certainly Beta is not a PED. They do not have proof. I do agree on the CHRB.



Why can't they say that? Because this is politics now. An example. I again think he needs to be disqualified. Apparently he must by taken to the woodshed. It makes no sense to me personally.



You do not have the records to prove it. Also you know that Todd etc are not squeaky clean and were never in trouble. They are not all perfect. My educated guess is there are few like Shug, G. Motion etc. Few. So if someone who had violations states they are not running against Bob, then we are just making up for years and years of mistakes or politics. Will O Neill and Asmussen step up too and not run?



If anyone ever read some of the details on here, they would realize in the case below a lab made a mistake. Just to reflect on fact based arguments. Someone said they never heard of a sample being wrong. Well recently Karl, who I am suspicious of and stated this very point in early 2020, was righted below. Now we have elevated a guy who works for others to Lance Armstrong who worked for himself. The only similarity is that they were on the top of the heap at one point.



Owner/trainer Karl Broberg said he feels "wronged" by the Louisiana State University equine testing laboratory after he said split-sample testing cleared one of his horses of three medication positives that that had been called by that lab. Broberg said he was notified this winter that Tiz One Fee , a 7-year-old Tiz The One mare he trains and owns under his stable name End Zone Athletics, was reported by Medication Surveillance Laboratory at the Louisiana State University School of Veterinary Medicine to have tested positive following a Nov. 24 allowance victory at Delta Downs for oxycodone, citalopram, and levamisole. The presence of the three drugs, had they been confirmed, likely would have put Broberg at risk of fines and suspensions, the largest potentially from oxycodone, classified by the Association of Racing Commissioners International as a class 1 drug in penalty class A.

[Elkchester Road]

Originally Posted by mostpost

The problem here is that so many here think every one is a cheater, especially anyone who is successful. My opinion is that if you are so anxious to accuse others of cheating it’s because you cheat in your life and can’t conceive of others succeeding without cheating.

Sometimes a mistake is simply that, a mistake.

Even if what you say is true...why should the mistake NOT be punished? In your World...why even have rules...when they can just be skirted in the spirit of a "mistake"?

As far as Cheaters...a lot of us people who have a problem with Baffert (and other privileged people) have said problem because we live our lives on the "straight and narrow". For some...it isn't because they necessarily want to. It's because they aren't "privileged" enough to have another option.

As far as successful...some people are ONLY successful because they cheat. I don't begrudge others their good fortune, or their luck in which last name they have...among other things. I DO have a problem with those who shit on everything...and everybody...on their way to the top...and in their quest to stay there...and never leave.

[Elkchester Road]

Originally Posted by PhantomOnTour

I'm furious.
On this board I'm a known lover of Pimlico & the Preakness. Last year broke a string of 20 straight that I have attended in person. I've been an advocate of keeping the race at Pimlico and preserving tradition.
Sadly, another racing tradition is being preserved also. The tradition of cheating the game & the bettors and getting away with it.

I'm not a 'boycotter' and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't betting Pimlico at all this weekend, but I surely won't be betting the Preakness...how can I?
How can anyone?

Absolutely agree, POT.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

If all he had working to his advantage in the Derby was the betamethasone, the amount in his blood suggests it was used in that window area around 7-14 days prior or the Derby or he's telling the truth about the ointment. That's not performance enhancing according to what I've read. Any advantage was probably gained by getting any swelling down and being able to train him harder before the Derby. Coming back on two weeks rest I doubt much training was scheduled for this race anyway. If he was actually "off" in any way he wouldn't run or get past the vet.

He obviously can lose just like any other horse, but that won't automatically mean it was lack of drugs. To me the risk is that the positive indicated some other drug was used. But that has been shot down by a few vets that know way more than I do.

Many people are asserting the positive for beta is because he was getting other stronger drugs and this created a positive test.

[Elkchester Road]

Originally Posted by paulbenny

I think he should be disqualified. I agree with that. I think that he is what we focus on right now. Lukas had his problems a long time ago, I think but maybe I am wrong. So armed with a focused knowledge on Baffert, it is easy to hammer the guy. I was a person who claimed that Navarro would be in trouble literally a week before it happened. That is not to say I am some sharp guy.


I am indifferent to Bob Baffert, really. I had money on Mand. The point is, he is the focus, not Doug O'Neill, not Karl Broberg, etc. So my point on the rules are he did break them. Fine, but really it is very plausible that it was not intentional, like Navarro or Servis based upon the indictments of those two. If in fact, BB is that bad, lets see Walden and the Justify guys bail on him. Then if they do not people will say it is all an insider party and they all want to let it go or whatever.



We cannot have a police state of the police state here. It does get ridiculous. Again, Frank Whitley should not have run Ruffian because she was two fast and the toll on a horse is just too much, there heart is stronger than their legs argument.


I am not defending the guy I am saying he should not be given the victory. Lou Caval. should have been hung for Dancer's Image, right. I mean that was much different I believe.



People seem to dislike Baffert here.

Baffert didn't become disliked UNTIL well into building the reputation he now has.

You are not far from Troll status...

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by Elkchester Road

Baffert didn't become disliked UNTIL well into building the reputation he now has.

Disagree completely on the "UNTIL" statement

[classhandicapper]

If I belonged to PETA and had access to 50k-100k from their war chest and offered a bribe to a backstretch employee (possibly even the employee of a specific trainer) to inject or expose a horse to a drug that would cause a positive (and he said yes) could it be pulled off?

Is that even conceivable or is the security for horses like this 24 hours 7 days a week leading up to big races?

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

If I belonged to PETA and had access to 50k-100k from their war chest and offered a bribe to a backstretch employee (possibly even the employee of a specific trainer) to inject or expose a horse to a drug that would cause a positive (and he said yes) could it be pulled off?

Is that even conceivable or is the security for horses like this 24 hours 7 days a week leading up to big races?

considering the moneys involved, and not really to produce a positive test, but I am sure horses have been messed with on occasion with financial incentive to grooms.

[Elkchester Road]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

Disagree completely on the "UNTIL" statement

So be it.