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Old 01-29-2017, 08:09 PM   #811
Exotic1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
A fifth off isn't too shabby, I was happy with it.
Are you kidding? Of course.
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:12 PM   #812
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Are you kidding? Of course.

Yeah, just having fun.
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:26 PM   #813
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Originally Posted by dilanesp
I'm not sure it's worth that much. It's actually tough to slow a 1,000 pound animal down all that much.

Horses often run their top speed figures in races where they appear to be running easily. I'm willing to say that maybe Arrogate runs a fifth faster if Smith urges him all the way to the wire, but not more than that.

I agree. My statement was purely subjective. It was a combination of things. Smith's statements, video and other things. Nothing that I can quantify scientifically.
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:27 PM   #814
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Originally Posted by cj
Yeah, just having fun.
Cj,

After which dirt race were you comfortable with the variant? In other words, was it the Poseidon that finalized it or were you onto to it before that and the Poseidon reinforced it?

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Old 01-29-2017, 08:36 PM   #815
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Originally Posted by cj
It is so frustrating. It has such potential. It has went to shit since Pat Cummings left to go to Hong Kong. He cared. Doesn't seem anyone else does.
Still pretty amazing that we can't get accurate data on a $12 million race. Kinda indicative of horse racing's problems and how the sport views bettors.
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:55 PM   #816
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Originally Posted by Jeff P
I think I can illustrate just how true that is by putting some numbers to it.

Watching replays of yesterday's race I noticed that while Arrogate was visibly sent from the gate by Mike Smith - both he and California Chrome were within a length of each other position-wise through all of the clubhouse turn, the length of the backstretch, and they they were still almost on even terms up until about the mid point of the far turn.

The chart confirms this.

But the overhead or aerial replay shows that Arrogate raced against the rail through the first turn, for the length of the backstretch, and for about the first half of the second turn - before Mike Smith tipped him out so he could make his move.


The same aerial replay shows that California Chrome raced about five wide on the first turn and about four wide on the second turn.

So if Arrogate raced against the rail up through the mid point of the second turn where Mike Smith tipped him out so he could make his move - and if California Chrome raced 5 wide on the first turn and 4 wide up through the mid point of the second turn:

I have California Chrome traveling about 69.47 feet further than Arrogate did up to that point in the race.

-----

Racing closest to the rail while on a straight-away or racing wide while on a straight-away has minimal impact on distance traveled. (So I'll ignore that in this post for the sake of simplicity.)

But racing wide on a turn DOES have an impact on distance traveled.

And this is something that can be calculated.

-----

A racetrack (Gulfstream Park included) is nothing more than two straight-aways (the backstretch and the stretch) connected by two half circles (the clubhouse turn and the far turn.)

The formula for the circumference of a circle is: 2 pi r

Where pi (Google it ) is approximately 3.1416 and r is the radius of the circle

If each turn is one half of a circle, then the distance traveled by a horse while navigating one turn on a race track is 1 pi r.

My guesstimate in this post for the radius of the Gulfstream Park dirt course turns is about 545 feet. (The actual radius might be different than that and if someone out there has that info please chime in and post it.)

My guesstimate in this post for the width of a horse (or the width of each path taken up by a horse as it navigates a turn) is about 3.25 feet. (Note that this is a guesstimate and if someone out there has a more accurate number than the 3.25 feet I am using in this post feel free to chime in an post it.)

Each path that a horse races wide on a turn adds about 3.25 feet to the radius of the turn.

-----

Based on the above, Arrogate traveled about 1712.17 feet while navigating the clubhouse turn - calculated as follows:

dist = pi times r

or

1712.17 = (3.1416) x (545)

At the same time California Chrome traveled about 1763.22 feet while navigating the clubhouse turn - calculated as follows:

dist = pi times r

or

dist = (3.1416) x (545 + (5 x 3.25))

or

dist = (3.1416) x (545 + (16.25))

or

1763.22 = (3.1416) x (561.25)

Note that the above calculation uses a turn radius of 561.25 feet instead of 545 feet (to adjust for California Chrome being 5 paths wide.)

Based on the above, I have California Chrome traveling about 51.05 feet further than Arrogate while navigating the clubhouse turn.

----

Now let's do the first half of the far turn (that's about when Mike Smith tipped Arrogate off the rail to make his move.)

Since we are only talking about half a turn here, we can use the following formula to get distance traveled:

dist = (pi times r) divided by 2

For Arrogate that works out to 856.09 feet calculated as follows:

dist = (3.1416 x 545) / 2

or

858.09 = (3.1416 x 545) / 2

For California Chrome that works out to 876.51 feet calculated as follows:

dist = (pi times r) divided by 2

or

dist = (3.1416) x (545 + (4 x 3.25)) / 2

or

876.51 = (3.1416) x (545 + (13)) / 2

Based on the above, I have California Chrome traveling about 69.47 feet further than Arrogate did up until about the mid point of the far turn where Mike Smith tipped Arrogate out so he could make his move.

How significant is that?

I think that's VERY significant.

Both horses were within a length of each other at that point.

But California Chrome was forced to expend extra energy (relative to Arrogate) because he was forced 5 wide on the first turn and 4 wide on the second turn travelling 69.47 feet further than Arrogate did up to that point in the race.

Ignoring for second my belief system which says that racing wide on the first turn while being asked for speed is one of the more costly things energy-wise a rider can do to a horse...

I contend the following:

When Mike Smith tipped Arrogate out to make his move he was sitting on a fresher horse (one with far more in the tank) than the horse Victor Espinoza was sitting on - in large part because Espinoza and California Chrome were forced to travel 69.47 feet further than Smith and Arrogate.

If both horses were at the top of their respective games - and if both horses were about equal in ability going into the race - then at the point in the race where Mike Smith tipped Arrogate off the rail to make his move - because of the energy exerted by both horses up to that point in the race:

Mike Smith's horse should pull away from Victor Espinoza's horse.

I also contend that Gulfstream stats for the far outside posts at the 9 furlong distance are what they are for a reason.




-jp

.
Good analysis Jeff and I have attached some drawings that you might like.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf GULFSTREAM PARK.pdf (614.1 KB, 9 views)
File Type: pdf California Chrome 2017 PWC 1st Turn.pdf (200.4 KB, 14 views)
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:55 PM   #817
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http://www.drf.com/news/california-c...asus-world-cup

Don't know if this was posted here already.
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Old 01-29-2017, 11:06 PM   #818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
Money records always increase over time. Citation's million is worth far more than Arrogate's 11 million.

The point of Cigar is that he dominated the major handicap races that attract the best horses for a long time, beat a whole bunch of big stakes winners, won 16 in a row against mostly the toughest competition, etc.

That's far more important than winning 3 races with big Beyers.



Golden Slewpy
Our Motion Granted
Golden Plover
Devil His Due
Upping the Ante
Primitive Hall
Pride of Burkaan
Silver Goblin
Poor But Honest
Tinners Way
Star Standard
Unaccounted For
L'Carriere
Wekiva Springs
Soul of the Matter
Personal Merit
Dramatic Gold


There's a list of all of the horses who ever ran 2nd to Cigar.


After running 2nd to Cigar they tallied 6 Grade I wins between them (with a couple of those in 4-horse fields).


Indeed there are a few ultra-strong names on the list but there are some creampuffs too.


The span between Cigar's first-ever Gr. I win and his last win of any sort was less than 22 months.


Lastly, maturity in race horses is far more a constant than is the money attached to the purses and that is why, for example, Easy Goer having tuned-up for the Wood Memorial with a mile in 1:32 and 2/5 is far more impressive than Dr. Fager having toured a mile in 1:32 and 1/5 during August of his 4yo season.

If you're absurd enough to not understand that Arrogate still has far more upside as you compare him to the finished product of whatever modern comparisons you tend to make, then you are probably foolish enough to render insignificant the inflationary times relating to horse purses/earnings as well.
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Old 01-29-2017, 11:18 PM   #819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff P

But California Chrome was forced to expend extra energy (relative to Arrogate) because he was forced 5 wide on the first turn and 4 wide on the second turn travelling 69.47 feet further than Arrogate did up to that point in the race.



This is another absurd justification for the 'Chromies.


California Chrome was never forced anywhere... just as Victor Espinoza was never forced to spend much of the BC Classic looking backward and waiting for the meteor to land on his head.

It was in fact Victor's will/wish to sit several paths off the rail rather than "expend extra energy" to get the trip that might have seen him fail by just 20 lengths instead of 29.


If another horse bolts and you're outside of it, only then are you "forced wide".

If you're racing between horses, and one on either side comes over and sends you into the other, only then are you "forced" into another horse.

Drumming up excuses which still leave you 20 lengths in arrears is a fruitless task.

One suspects that Victor knew the post position stats by the middle of last week just as Kent Desormeaux knew that he would break from the 20-hole in the 2008 Kentucky Derby.

Nobody was forced to do anything in either situation.
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Old 01-29-2017, 11:45 PM   #820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AskinHaskin
Golden Slewpy
Our Motion Granted
Golden Plover
Devil His Due
Upping the Ante
Primitive Hall
Pride of Burkaan
Silver Goblin
Poor But Honest
Tinners Way
Star Standard
Unaccounted For
L'Carriere
Wekiva Springs
Soul of the Matter
Personal Merit
Dramatic Gold


There's a list of all of the horses who ever ran 2nd to Cigar.


After running 2nd to Cigar they tallied 6 Grade I wins between them (with a couple of those in 4-horse fields).


Indeed there are a few ultra-strong names on the list but there are some creampuffs too.


The span between Cigar's first-ever Gr. I win and his last win of any sort was less than 22 months.


Lastly, maturity in race horses is far more a constant than is the money attached to the purses and that is why, for example, Easy Goer having tuned-up for the Wood Memorial with a mile in 1:32 and 2/5 is far more impressive than Dr. Fager having toured a mile in 1:32 and 1/5 during August of his 4yo season.

If you're absurd enough to not understand that Arrogate still has far more upside as you compare him to the finished product of whatever modern comparisons you tend to make, then you are probably foolish enough to render insignificant the inflationary times relating to horse purses/earnings as well.
Askin, go look at the field in the 1995 Hollywood Gold Cup, which Cigar dusted without being whipped in 1:59 and change while carrying 126 and conceding weight.

(In my estimation it was the second strongest field in the history of the race, behind only the field Noor beat in 1950.)

And then come back and tell us he didn't beat anyone or that you are sure Arrogate will be better.
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Old 01-29-2017, 11:50 PM   #821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
Askin, go look at the field in the 1995 Hollywood Gold Cup, which Cigar dusted without being whipped in 1:59 and change while carrying 126 and conceding weight.

(In my estimation it was the second strongest field in the history of the race, behind only the field Noor beat in 1950.)

And then come back and tell us he didn't beat anyone or that you are sure Arrogate will be better.
The toughest runners in that field were Concern, Best Pal, Tinners Way, and Urgent Request....
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Old 01-29-2017, 11:50 PM   #822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AskinHaskin
This is another absurd justification for the 'Chromies.


California Chrome was never forced anywhere... just as Victor Espinoza was never forced to spend much of the BC Classic looking backward and waiting for the meteor to land on his head.

It was in fact Victor's will/wish to sit several paths off the rail rather than "expend extra energy" to get the trip that might have seen him fail by just 20 lengths instead of 29.


If another horse bolts and you're outside of it, only then are you "forced wide".

If you're racing between horses, and one on either side comes over and sends you into the other, only then are you "forced" into another horse.

Drumming up excuses which still leave you 20 lengths in arrears is a fruitless task.

One suspects that Victor knew the post position stats by the middle of last week just as Kent Desormeaux knew that he would break from the 20-hole in the 2008 Kentucky Derby.

Nobody was forced to do anything in either situation.
I think riders get into bad habits taking big stakes horses wide. They tell themselves the ground loss doesn't matter and they don't want to risk criticism by being blocked inside.

Smith rode Arrogate extremely well.
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Old 01-29-2017, 11:52 PM   #823
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Originally Posted by ReplayRandall
The toughest runners in that field were Concern, Best Pal, Tinners Way, and Urgent Request....
That's 2 Santa Anita Handicaps, 2 Pacific Classics, and 2 horses who hit the board in the TC and a BC Classic winner right there....
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Old 01-30-2017, 12:05 AM   #824
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Originally Posted by dilanesp
Smith rode Arrogate extremely well.
The beat goes on for Mike. Riding Arrogate, Songbird, Unique Bella, Mastery and American Anthem among others. Just another ho hum year for Mike
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Old 01-30-2017, 12:18 AM   #825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
Askin, go look at the field in the 1995 Hollywood Gold Cup, which Cigar dusted without being whipped in 1:59 and change while carrying 126 and conceding weight.

(In my estimation it was the second strongest field in the history of the race, behind only the field Noor beat in 1950.)

And then come back and tell us he didn't beat anyone or that you are sure Arrogate will be better.

Um, OK


Tinner's Way did win two subsequent Grade I's


Tossofthecoin never won again

Blumin Affair won a Grade III by a nose next out for his only subsequent win

Best Pal won the listed $65K Skywalker Hcp for his only subsequent win

Concern later won a $25K allowance race for his only subsequent win

Del Mar Dennis later won an allowance of his own, and the Gr. II San Bernardino

Urgent Request later took a grade II in the slop, and a Grade III on turf


And among those also-rans only Best Pal ever earned a BSF to match or top Arrogate's BSF earned on Saturday, less than a month beyond his official 4th birthday. The point is, he continues to have considerable upside and is already in the highest echelon (of whatever remains of this once-grand sport).


Thank you for playing.

There will be a Hollywood Park car vacuum from 1984 awaiting you upon your departure
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