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03-22-2019, 02:33 PM
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#196
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Roulston
But can the Stronachs even legally do this?
Doesn't the state have to make any changes in medication rules? And if not, what about Del Mar - and the tracks on the Northern California fair circuit, and Los Alamitos? Might this lead to additional racing dates for these tracks because horsemen will still want to be able to run their horses on Lasix?
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They can do it (California law gives tracks broad power to exclude trainers accused of dishonorable conduct), but in practice they need agreement from the horsemen because otherwise they will not be able to fill entries.
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03-22-2019, 02:46 PM
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#197
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Vancouver Island
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,747
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Last edited by bob60566; 03-22-2019 at 02:49 PM.
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03-22-2019, 06:35 PM
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#198
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 5,870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redboard
When Keenland went back to dirt to get the Breeders Cup, their handle actually went DOWN at their first meet on dirt.
Also the breakdown rate is lower on flubber than turf.
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if synthetic was so great why did major tracks like Del Mar, SA and Kee get rid of it?
Because it essentially played, being as kind as I can, like a turf race. And if you are going to have it play kinda like a turf race, might as well have turf, especially in this day and age.
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03-22-2019, 06:52 PM
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#199
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMB@BP
if synthetic was so great why did major tracks like Del Mar, SA and Kee get rid of it?
Because it essentially played, being as kind as I can, like a turf race. And if you are going to have it play kinda like a turf race, might as well have turf, especially in this day and age.
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Well, synthetics are all weather. Turf courses are notoriously susceptible to weather. For that reason, even many places in the world that have almost all grass racing have some synthetic tracks.
Also, while turf and synthetic racing are similar, they are not identical. There were plenty of conventional dirt horses, including Game on Dude, for instance, who did just fine on synthetics.
The reason tracks got rid of it was pressure from handicappers and trainers. Handicappers didn't like that their speed figures didn't work on them, and trainers didn't like that some of their expensively bred horses didn't run as well as they wanted them to on them, and also further didn't like that it was harder to measure performance.
And note, not all tracks got rid of them. Hollywood had one right to the bitter end, there have been zero calls to get rid of Golden Gate's Tapeta, and Arlington, Turfway, and Woodbine still have them.
The reality is they will come back, in a big way, if the sport is to survive. The challenge to make them "more dirt like" is nothing more than a scientific / engineering / product design challenge, and in every other sport, synthetic surfaces have gotten better and better over time.
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03-22-2019, 08:55 PM
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#200
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,414
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It's time to ban all race day meds. Bute, lasix, the whole damn works. If the industry can survive the next half dozen years or so then they'll be stronger in the end. But I don't think it can.
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03-22-2019, 10:07 PM
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#201
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Vancouver Island
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,747
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A lack of will
Horse racing in the U.S., to a large degree, is a sport that abides a culture of cheating.
The unwillingness of regulatory bodies to implement common sense deterrents has led to, in many states, risk-free cheating. A clear-cut example is out-of-competition testing.
Out-of-competition testing occurs days, weeks, or months before a horse's race, or between races. Its goal is to determine if horses are training on prohibited drugs that can enhance performance on race day.
Epogen from AmgenBlood doping drugs like Epogen (EPO) cause the body to produce additional blood cells that allow the athlete – horse or human – to increase their oxygen carrying capacity. The drug can only be detected for approximately three days after administration. The performance-enhancing effects will last up to 120 days – which is the life span of a red blood cell.
Many anabolic steroids are like blood doping drugs in that the performance enhancing effects far exceed the short time frame of detection.
States with little or no out-of-competition testing have invited their horsemen to cheat with impunity.
From 2017 https://www.paulickreport.com/news/r...ture-cheating/
Last edited by bob60566; 03-22-2019 at 10:12 PM.
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03-22-2019, 10:48 PM
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#202
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 5,870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
Well, synthetics are all weather. Turf courses are notoriously susceptible to weather. For that reason, even many places in the world that have almost all grass racing have some synthetic tracks.
Also, while turf and synthetic racing are similar, they are not identical. There were plenty of conventional dirt horses, including Game on Dude, for instance, who did just fine on synthetics.
The reason tracks got rid of it was pressure from handicappers and trainers. Handicappers didn't like that their speed figures didn't work on them, and trainers didn't like that some of their expensively bred horses didn't run as well as they wanted them to on them, and also further didn't like that it was harder to measure performance.
And note, not all tracks got rid of them. Hollywood had one right to the bitter end, there have been zero calls to get rid of Golden Gate's Tapeta, and Arlington, Turfway, and Woodbine still have them.
The reality is they will come back, in a big way, if the sport is to survive. The challenge to make them "more dirt like" is nothing more than a scientific / engineering / product design challenge, and in every other sport, synthetic surfaces have gotten better and better over time.
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I would argue it was the breeders and owners of expensive horses who probably had the biggest issue with it, but the trainers would have been a close second.
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03-22-2019, 11:38 PM
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#203
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
I don't buy that at all. If that were the case, WADA and the Olympics would permit the drug.
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Lasix (Furosemide) increases urination so drug breakdown products will clear faster if that is how they are excreted. It also will dehydrate if replacement fluids or water is not available, which is how it helps horses from bleeding.
The Olympics and WADA prohibit it because many competitions involve athlete weight. Also if they are only testing for drug metabolites by urine, they will miss some.
When Chad was training at Canterbury, they tested top 3 horses in every race plus specials if the Stewards wanted any lower placed (not too often but like a big favorite that did not fire at all). They tested both urine and blood serum. If all tracks are doing this now, the drug metabolites will be found (even though they might not originally know what they are from if it is a new exotic drug).
The following article explains some about abuses with human athletes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2962812/
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03-23-2019, 07:24 AM
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#204
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davew
Lasix (Furosemide) increases urination so drug breakdown products will clear faster if that is how they are excreted. It also will dehydrate if replacement fluids or water is not available, which is how it helps horses from bleeding.
The Olympics and WADA prohibit it because many competitions involve athlete weight. Also if they are only testing for drug metabolites by urine, they will miss some.
When Chad was training at Canterbury, they tested top 3 horses in every race plus specials if the Stewards wanted any lower placed (not too often but like a big favorite that did not fire at all). They tested both urine and blood serum. If all tracks are doing this now, the drug metabolites will be found (even though they might not originally know what they are from if it is a new exotic drug).
The following article explains some about abuses with human athletes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2962812/
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thanks Dave that's exactly it. Two different things completely.
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03-23-2019, 07:37 AM
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#205
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lakehurst, NJ
Posts: 1,035
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Have any studies been done - and of course studies are everything! - that synthetic has fewer scratches due to the theoretical lack of sloppy or muddy tracks, and therefore larger fields?
And more horses in a race leads to higher handle - as does more betting interests as the result of allowing horses trained by the same trainer but owned by different owners to run uncoupled in the wagering.
It's all about the Benjamins, baby!
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03-23-2019, 12:15 PM
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#206
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1,114
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If anyone is still doubting how a lot of this is for perception....but it seems PETA is not backing down....this is still very troubling.
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03-23-2019, 12:30 PM
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#207
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cutchemist42
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PETA is on a roll here. I don't think horsemen realize just how unpopular Lasix is going to be if it is explained to voters.
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03-23-2019, 12:38 PM
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#208
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 1,791
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All of this comes back to how badly SA handled the Lasix issue. I think everyone in here has enough knowledge to know that to some degree Lasix is bad, either as a performance enhancer a masking agent or whatever.
The point is coming up with a plan to phase it out was always the right way to go. By coming out guns blazing that Lasix and all raceday meds would be banned immediately SA put themselves in a corner. And now that Lasix will be phased out all the loons like PETA etc. are still going to be pissed off.
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03-23-2019, 01:17 PM
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#209
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Phinney
All of this comes back to how badly SA handled the Lasix issue. I think everyone in here has enough knowledge to know that to some degree Lasix is bad, either as a performance enhancer a masking agent or whatever.
The point is coming up with a plan to phase it out was always the right way to go. By coming out guns blazing that Lasix and all raceday meds would be banned immediately SA put themselves in a corner. And now that Lasix will be phased out all the loons like PETA etc. are still going to be pissed off.
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If PETA doesn't keep the pressure on, Lasix will not be phased out.
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03-23-2019, 01:56 PM
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#210
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 510
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I heard that the Governor of California was considering making Santa Anita a compound for the Homeless.
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