Questions about Laurel

[wisconsin]

Originally Posted by thespaah

I have to ask..What does Colonial have to do with Laurel?
How is the existence of Colonial a detriment to Maryland racing?
Is it your contention that the State of Maryland has an exclusive on east coast racing south of Newark DE and north of Hallandale Beach , FL?
Look, if Laurel can't hang on to its best horses and trainers when a track nearly 250 miles to the south opens , how is that the problem of Colonial Downs?
BTW, a good percentage of the races at Cnl are carded for VA Breds. Also, Cnl is the only track that has a dirt course that cards majority turf events.
I'm not here to argue. I'd prefer a discussion.

There actually was a time when Colonial opened that Laurel closed during the Va meet.

[proximity]

Originally Posted by wisconsin

There actually was a time when Colonial opened that Laurel closed during the Va meet.

yes, when it opened it was part of the circuit, with maryland horses, trainers, and jockeys basically and that is fine but as a fan of the circuit i would have preferred that the circuit continue to run w-su and remain a consistent part of a AM drf (there were am and pm drf at the time) with nyra and so cal. again this was just my opinion and preference as one fan, just like i preferred the handicapping challenge of the two turn routes to boring one turn miles.

in the end, i really enjoyed this era and thought a lot was going right with the slam dunk of slots on the horizon to make things even better.

didn't happen and life goes on.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by thespaah

I have to ask..What does Colonial have to do with Laurel?
How is the existence of Colonial a detriment to Maryland racing?
Is it your contention that the State of Maryland has an exclusive on east coast racing south of Newark DE and north of Hallandale Beach , FL?
Look, if Laurel can't hang on to its best horses and trainers when a track nearly 250 miles to the south opens , how is that the problem of Colonial Downs?
BTW, a good percentage of the races at Colonial are carded for VA Breds. Also, Cnl. is the only track that has a dirt course that cards majority turf events.
I'm not here to argue. I'd prefer a discussion.

It was a detriment to the horses and workers that were stabled at Laurel as well as Bowie and Pimlico and forced to ship and support racing 3 hours away on a good day, by van in August where you left at roughly 5 AM to get there in time for lasix treatment for the early races and typically got home between 7PM and 11PM that night. That groom worked 14- 18 hours that day. And had to be back by 6 AM the next morning.

If you chose not to run there with a stabled horse from Laurel, when the races came back, the constant threat of no stall space anymore for the horses that did not support it hung heavily over your head by management.

Yep. That's how management played.

Don't get me wrong, if you had a turf horse, the course was very nice. If you had a Va. Bred, the purses were GREAT with the added money. But all in all, August on a van going around the Washington Beltway both to and from was terrible. And if you hit an accident, you had to scratch because you missed the lasix deadline and then sit 10 hours waiting for the later horses to run before you could go home.
Racing in Va. would have been fine had it been not so far down the road. Literally the middle of nowhere.

Growing pains I guess but those that felt the most pain are forgotten now.
Doesn't seem fair in hindsight but things like this seldom are.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by Ruffian1

It was a detriment to the horses and workers that were stabled at Laurel as well as Bowie and Pimlico and forced to ship and support racing 3 hours away on a good day, by van in August where you left at roughly 5 AM to get there in time for lasix treatment for the early races and typically got home between 7PM and 11PM that night. That groom worked 14- 18 hours that day. And had to be back by 6 AM the next morning.

If you chose not to run there with a stabled horse from Laurel, when the races came back, the constant threat of no stall space anymore for the horses that did not support it hung heavily over your head by management.

Yep. That's how management played.

Don't get me wrong, if you had a turf horse, the course was very nice. If you had a Va. Bred, the purses were GREAT with the added money. But all in all, August on a van going around the Washington Beltway both to and from was terrible. And if you hit an accident, you had to scratch because you missed the lasix deadline and then sit 10 hours waiting for the later horses to run before you could go home.
Racing in Va. would have been fine had it been not so far down the road. Literally the middle of nowhere.

Growing pains I guess but those that felt the most pain are forgotten now.
Doesn't seem fair in hindsight but things like this seldom are.

Ok...Would not shipping in to Colonial be a choice?
And if a barn did not have any grass runners , would they not simply race somewhere else? Like Delaware, Parx or Monmouth?
Those tracks are closer anyway.
Look, I saw a bunch of boo hoo by Mid Atlantic based horsemen who opposed the existence of Colonial during its first iteration. They complained because they felt CNL took away horses from Maryland. How dare Virginia do such a thing. Well, they worked very hard to get the VA Horsemen to shut down CNL...They succeeded. Then, another group of horse owners and other interested parties revived the track. Because of its success , Churchill Downs Inc stepped in an bought the place. If the track wasn't doing well, I doubt the investment would have been made, if the track wasn't performing. The 2023 Meeting saw a significant increase in both on track attendance and all sources handle. Over one half million dollars in avg daily purses. Avg field size was a bit over 10 starters.
Maryland Racing....For them I have a solution. Get better. That is how one business competes with another.

[thespaah]

Growing pains I guess but those that felt the most pain are forgotten now.
Doesn't seem fair in hindsight but things like this seldom are.
"If you chose not to run there with a stabled horse from Laurel, when the races came back, the constant threat of no stall space anymore for the horses that did not support it hung heavily over your head by management.

Yep. That's how management played.

Wait...I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the above. Are you claiming that Laurel management was more or less coercing horsemen to ship to Colonial under threat of losing stalls at Laurel? I'm really confused here.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Ruffian1

Take a look at the background. Not the eye candy but the clubhouse reserved boxes.

You see 1 fan.

is that Jack Torrance?

[foregoforever]

Originally Posted by thespaah

Wait...I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the above. Are you claiming that Laurel management was more or less coercing horsemen to ship to Colonial under threat of losing stalls at Laurel? I'm really confused here.

From its opening in 1997 through 2005, Colonial was managed and operated by the Maryland Jockey Club, the owners of Laurel and Pimlico.

The MJC, led by De Francis, had been one of the original applicants for a VA license, and wanted to build a track in Fairfax County (northern VA), and had offered to merge the new track into the Maryland circuit by shutting down Laurel during the new track's meet.

The merged circuit made a lot of sense, but voters in Fairfax shot down the new track in a referendum. So De Francis had a good plan but nowhere to build a track. Meanwhile, the Colonial Downs group had the land and was ready to build in New Kent, but getting horses to run there was going to be a problem if they ran at the same time as Laurel.

So they came up with this management deal, and the MJC did shut down Laurel during the Colonial meet. This led to the "encouragement" that Ruffian1 describes.

The management deal ended in 2005, and Colonial took over the management of the track.

[Ruffian1]

I do not know him so I am no help with who that is. Sorry.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by thespaah

Wait...I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the above. Are you claiming that Laurel management was more or less coercing horsemen to ship to Colonial under threat of losing stalls at Laurel? I'm really confused here.

Not more or less. Totally, completely and watching your move with each horse and where they went to run like a hawk. They checked the stable gate Ins and Outs of all horses daily.
Management closely monitored the empty stalls and ship outs. And while they do need to see what's going on ( I wish they had done it years earlier detecting who was cheating but that's for another day) with stalls to stay on top of it, the Colonial fiasco early on was over the top with veiled threats as to running when and where. Suggesting that they could run elsewhere, like Delaware Park if an equal type race was being run at Colonial was not much of an option unless you wanted blow back from management.
To some degree this has gone on since the beginning of racing. It's part of the politics and I certainly get that, but it was severe during the Colonial start up years and brutal on the stable employees and horses. Not necessarily the better horses who could afford to have their private van but the bread and butter horses and workers that raced in the cheaper races. The maiden claimers, nw/2 for 7,500, etc. Those owners were not going to want to pay for a private van and extra help. The economics did not make that realistic.

[groupie doll]

Originally Posted by Ruffian1

I do not know him so I am no help with who that is. Sorry.

He's a fixture at the Overlook Hotel...

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by thespaah

Ok...Would not shipping in to Colonial be a choice?
And if a barn did not have any grass runners , would they not simply race somewhere else? Like Delaware, Parx or Monmouth?
Those tracks are closer anyway.
Look, I saw a bunch of boo hoo by Mid Atlantic based horsemen who opposed the existence of Colonial during its first iteration. They complained because they felt CNL took away horses from Maryland. How dare Virginia do such a thing. Well, they worked very hard to get the VA Horsemen to shut down CNL...They succeeded. Then, another group of horse owners and other interested parties revived the track. Because of its success , Churchill Downs Inc stepped in an bought the place. If the track wasn't doing well, I doubt the investment would have been made, if the track wasn't performing. The 2023 Meeting saw a significant increase in both on track attendance and all sources handle. Over one half million dollars in avg daily purses. Avg field size was a bit over 10 starters.
Maryland Racing....For them I have a solution. Get better. That is how one business competes with another.

As for the boo hoo of Md. horsemen, fans can only know what they read. But like many topics, the entire story is difficult to hear without a biased assessment. Horsemen have not always been right. Far from it. But management has not either.
The 2023 statistics are great but I am talking about 1997, 98,99 not 2023. Not even 2001 as I retired from the game earlier that year. In hindsight, from what I have seen since, thankfully.

So please, you Look. Your facts are really not in line with The facts of what actually happened. I am not about to argue with you on this subject. I shed a light on a portion of it that many, including you, obviously never knew. Sometimes, no most times, seeing something from another view casts a whole new light on the totality of a subject for someone trying to form an objective opinion. The light I cast was not an opinion or hearsay, it was reality and the truth. Something that is harder and harder to find every day.
So for that, your welcome, kind sir.

[dilanesp]

The sad thing is that the perfectly logical thing was to close Pimlico and keep Laurel open and remodel it to host the Preakness, but instead the powers that be are going in the other direction and spending a lot of Maryland taxpayer money to do it.

I assume that ultimately Pimlico's going to still have viability problems even after the big retrofit.

[wisconsin]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

The sad thing is that the perfectly logical thing was to close Pimlico and keep Laurel open and remodel it to host the Preakness, but instead the powers that be are going in the other direction and spending a lot of Maryland taxpayer money to do it.

I assume that ultimately Pimlico's going to still have viability problems even after the big retrofit.

I think everyone will see why Laurel is not the answer when temporarily run there. There simply is not enough land to expand and host 100k people, and the infield has a large pit in it.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by foregoforever

From its opening in 1997 through 2005, Colonial was managed and operated by the Maryland Jockey Club, the owners of Laurel and Pimlico.

The MJC, led by De Francis, had been one of the original applicants for a VA license, and wanted to build a track in Fairfax County (northern VA), and had offered to merge the new track into the Maryland circuit by shutting down Laurel during the new track's meet.

The merged circuit made a lot of sense, but voters in Fairfax shot down the new track in a referendum. So De Francis had a good plan but nowhere to build a track. Meanwhile, the Colonial Downs group had the land and was ready to build in New Kent, but getting horses to run there was going to be a problem if they ran at the same time as Laurel.

So they came up with this management deal, and the MJC did shut down Laurel during the Colonial meet. This led to the "encouragement" that Ruffian1 describes.

The management deal ended in 2005, and Colonial took over the management of the track.

Ahhh. Ok. I was not privy to those details. That makes sense.
One thing though. Why would MD horsemen simply not relocate horses they intended on racing at CNL, to be stabled at CNL? Why go through the hassle of trying to ship 160 miles though miserable DC traffic...In weather that is very likely to be hot and humid?
After all, the condition books are issued well in advance. The trainers have a pretty good grasp on what the Secretary is going to write on a given day.

[proximity]

you could have had a stronach owned triple crown casino at pimlico racecourse with someone else owning maryland million(s) casino at laurel park. maybe century or pen which i believe operate in the state (rocky gap and perryville?) or some other racino operation? i can't remember a lot and don't know all the details but how it all ended up is a shame.