Religion III

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I didn't say they were identical in looks.

What is your point?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

What is your point?

Is you wife the same biological gender as another woman? (NOTE: I'm not asking you if your wife is the same gender as someone who "identifies" as a woman -- just be clear.)

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Is you wife the same biological gender as another woman?

You are off on a tangent.

Did you or did you not understand my explanation of how evolution causes differences in organisms?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

You are off on a tangent.

Did you or did you not understand my explanation of how evolution causes differences in organisms?

Does evolution cause women to be different in gender from other women? I mean...are there really 76 Heinz-like different biological genders?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Does evolution cause women to be different in gender from other women?

Evolution caused the development of two genders! Now, what does that have to do with desires?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Evolution caused the development of two genders! Now, what does that have to do with desires?

How do desires fit in with the theory you stated in 6189?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

How do desires fit in with the theory you stated in 6189?

So now you want to discuss 6189! Ok! I'll play. Do you understand 6189?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Actor

No.

I've explained this before.

The state of the universe at any given instant in time is determined by the state of the universe at the previous instant (plus or minus quantum uncertainty). Ultimately and "choice" a person makes is because a certain neuron in the brain fires. Which neuron fires is ultimately a random event controlled by the four primal forces: gravity, electric, strong and weak. The weak force seems have the greatest influence in randomness. Bottom line: "choice" is an illusion. Everything is random.

I've explained it for you. I cannot understand it for you.

Do you think self awareness and consciousness should be part of the equation?

I believe free will is a question of degree. A whole spectrum of independence from both nurture and nature. We can build muscles to increase nature. Perhaps the same for what we learn and become "programed" randomly by happenstance.

The option to direct "self learning" opens us up to more choices. Unless you think that option is only a few neurons firing? Maybe there is a cumulative effect of "plus or minus quantum uncertainty" that allows for consciousness to develop? All those individual quantum uncertainties multiplied billions of times as we grow may produce much greater degrees of freedom.

Could that additive cumulative effect of an individual maturing, and remembering, alter who we are and what we can do, beyond momentary elector-chemical interactions?

Our consciousness may be imperfect, but is it only neurons firing? Doesn't a computer program which emulates our brains, have the capacity to function on a larger scale of logic and calculation, than just the electronic pathways it resides in?

Eastern thought suggests free will can be acquired somewhat, so although our starting point may be considered a state of "sleep", being more awake opens up more possibilities

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

So now you want to discuss 6189! Ok! I'll play. Do you understand 6189?

Do you understand it? How does your theory fit in with human desires?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Do you understand it?

Yes!

Originally Posted by boxcar

How does your theory fit in with human desires?

I'll explain that once we've established that you understand 6189. A quiz seems to be in order.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by hcap

Do you think self awareness and consciousness should be part of the equation?

I don't see any way they could be separate from it. What is self awareness? Could it possibly be just data about one's self?

Originally Posted by hcap

Could that additive cumulative effect of an individual maturing, and remembering, alter who we are and what we can do, beyond momentary elector-chemical interactions?

Again, I don't see how.

Originally Posted by hcap

Doesn't a computer program which emulates our brains, have the capacity to function on a larger scale of logic and calculation, than just the electronic pathways it resides in?

No, such a program does not have that capacity. Although it can seem that it does.

Have you ever heard of or interacted with the computer program Eliza? It's actually a very simple program, just of few hundred lines of code. It seems to converse with the operator but in reality it just manipulates words. And it only operates on its most recent input. Some people seem to become addicted to it even after its operation has been explained to it.

Someone even wrote a computer program that won a game show against human opponents. I think the show was Jeopardy. The program was similar to Eliza, the major difference being the size of its database. Eliza's database is only a few dozen lines of code.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Yes!

I'll explain that once we've established that you understand 6189. A quiz seems to be in order.

Good, go find a quiz mate.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Good, go find a quiz mate.

You left out a comma. Punctuation is everything.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Actor

I don't see any way they could be separate from it. What is self awareness? Could it possibly be just data about one's self?

.

What is that feeling of "I" or "me"? Sure we can define it as elector-chemical interactions, but when I ask you "how do you feel"? What or who responds?

When you pay attention to a math problem, after doing some other activity what happens internally when you, "Actor" shifts gears and focus your attention to that math problem? And can "you" sense perhaps that change within?

We can generally agree on the color blue, but isn't the experience of perceiving it directly a different mental activity than knowing the frequency?

And more importantly, can you "watch" yourself change or vary in "I"-ness as your environment changes?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Actor

No, such a program does not have that capacity. Although it can seem that it does.

Have you ever heard of or interacted with the computer program Eliza? It's actually a very simple program, just of few hundred lines of code. It seems to converse with the operator but in reality it just manipulates words. And it only operates on its most recent input. Some people seem to become addicted to it even after its operation has been explained to it.

Someone even wrote a computer program that won a game show against human opponents. I think the show was Jeopardy. The program was similar to Eliza, the major difference being the size of its database. Eliza's database is only a few dozen lines of code.

I was drawing an analogy of scale of "processing" between a computer program and the human brain. The machine, the number of logic elements and their inter connectivity, and the user who programs it....The human, dependent on the number of neurons and "complexity of wiring", and the few billion years of evolutionary learning.

I am also indicating the higher up the evolutionary line, the greater the processing power of the brain. Evidently the number of neurons and connective network, the greater the information available to that organism.

For instance, an amoeba, having less options "to do" open to it than a higher mammal. Both what it knows and how int physically interacts with it's environment.

An individual logic element in a computer is no better than an amoeba in dealing in bandwidth with all the information. And the processing of that information than the larger network of all logic elements.

Does the program at a certain point, become aware of it's own functioning? You mentioned Eliza. Maybe we should be talking later A.I., and the singularity?