Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by TJDave

The LDS church grew from 1 to 16+ million in little more than 200 years.

ALL based on stupid s**t.

See my reply to Actor.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

We've been through this before, and recently too. You are making a claim that Christianity experienced "phenomenal growth" but you have no data to prove it. I specifically asked and you came up with nothing. You claim to have numbers "from scripture" but I doubt even that. Even if you do have numbers "from scripture" it makes no difference since scripture is not verifiable.

Here are some numbers for you. Scholars say that the population of the Roman Empire in the first century was 20,000,000 maximum or 12,000,000 minimum. How many Christian churches were there? I seriously doubt that you could offer any evidence for more that 10 (if that, prove me wrong). For the sake of argument let's say there were 1,000 members for each church (I'm being kind). That's a total Christian population of 10,000. That's less than one tenth of one percent of the population. Phenomenal growth? I don't think so.

Read the Book of Acts. There were churches all over Asia Minor in the first century. And even churches in Spain and Rome. And all these believers believed in a myth. (And by the way, there are numbers presented in Acts.)

But again...you're ducking the main point. How did the Jewish religious establishment in Jerusalem allow this to happen? How did they miss the very real threat the Jesus sect posed to them? How did they allow this sect to get so wildly out of control? And why would they let them get so out of control considering that this sect's message was so damaging to Judaism and repulsive to all followers of Moses?

[hcap]

If a religion spreading is somehow a "test" of it's validity, Islam is a close tie to Christianity considering it is 600 years younger.

Islam originated in Mecca and Medina at the start of the 7th century, approximately 600 years after the founding of Christianity.

Current world largest religions

Christianity (31.5%)
Islam (23.2%)

The percentage of time Islam has been around is only .70%
of Christianity, yer it has spread to over 0.73% of the Christian population

Evidently god does not play clear favorites.

But allows dumb arguments like judging religion by proliferation.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

If a religion spreading is somehow a "test" of it's validity, Islam is a close tie to Christianity considering it is 600 years younger.

Islam originated in Mecca and Medina at the start of the 7th century, approximately 600 years after the founding of Christianity.

Current world largest religions

Christianity (31.5%)
Islam (23.2%)

The percentage of time Islam has been around is only .70%
of Christianity, yer it has spread to over 0.73% of the Christian population

Evidently god does not play clear favorites.

But allows dumb arguments like judging religion by proliferation.

God always gives the ignorant enough rope with which to hang themselves.

Besides that, religions that teach men can win God's favor by good works or by obeying this law or that law will always appeal to men's egos and be more popular that Christianity's unique message that men are saved solely by God's grace through faith in the person and work of Christ.

But as an aside, my church supports a missionary whose ministry is in the UK and directed primarily to Muslims living there. (Most of the Muslims are Iranians.) God has blessed that ministry greatly as the church, out of which he works, is growing leaps and bounds with new converts almost weekly.
The gospel message is just as powerful today as when it was first preached. And God's word will never return to him void; for it will always accomplish the purpose for which it was sent.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by bollixed-up-car

God always gives the ignorant enough rope with which to hang themselves.

Besides that, religions that teach men can win God's favor by good works or by obeying this law or that law will always appeal to men's egos and be more popular that Christianity's unique message that men are saved solely by God's grace through faith in the person and work of Christ.

You bragged...

Originally Posted by boxcar

Then address my multi-part argument in the posts I cited. You need to come up with a rationale explanation for how from a nothing-burger a rag tag Jesus sect blossomed into a worldwide religion, first spreading throughout the Roman empire (the known world at that time) by at least 70 A.D., and eventually to the known world of today. That kind of phenomenal growth is unprecedented in all history -- all based on myth?? How did that happen? More importantly, how did the first century Jews allow that to happen? Were they all spaced out on drugs or something?

Islam grew as fast, therefore you need to come up with a rationale for the rag tag Mohamed "sect", a "a nothing-burger" religion, grew as quickly Christianity did.

Your entire argument is a royal "nothing-burger" with all your irrational garbage trimmings. As usual.

[boxcar]

Pentecost -- 10 days after Christ's ascension was when the Church of Christ turned "militant" and took it straight to the Evil One to storm the gates of hell. The gospel exploded all over Jerusalem and much farther even. Very many of the first converts on the day of Pentecost were Hellenistic Jews who lived in diverse places throughout Asia Minor that were under control of the Roman Empire.

Acts 2:5-13
5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were bewildered, because they were each one hearing them speak in his own language. 7 And they were amazed and marveled, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? 9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs — we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God." 12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"
NASB

Peter stands up and preaches the gospel to this large crowd of Jews -- Jews who lived in many different countries -- even from Rome! And here was the result.

Acts 2:41-42
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls. 42 And they were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
NASB

Understand the implications to this. The large majority of these Jews were "foreigners" visiting Jerusalem for the Passover and Pentecost holy days. This means they eventually took the gospel message back home to share with others, especially with other Jews. These men were effectively gospel seed cells.

Apparently, not too long after this, we are told in Acts 3 that Peter and John went up to the temple to worship and pray and they encountered a lame man born that way from his mother's womb. This poor man was begging for alms. Since they had no money to give, they gave him something far better: By the power of Christ they gave this lame man from birth the power to walk.

This miracle caused no small commotion in the temple area, since very many regular attenders knew exactly who this lame man was -- being in the temple every day, as he was. And the miracle also provided another golden opportunity for Peter to preach the gospel. And the results were even better than they were with his first sermon.

Acts 4:4
4 But many of those who had heard the message believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
NASB

Note carefully that this was just the number of men. The text doesn't tell us how many women were in the crowd and received the message of life through faith.

But this miracle and Peter's preaching caused such a uproar that it drew the attention and ire of the religious authorities. And we have a record of how swiftly the religious establishment reacted.

Acts 4:1-3
And as they were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple guard, and the Sadducees, came upon them, 2 being greatly disturbed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in jail until the next day, for it was already evening.
NASB

You see...the religious leaders didn't like the message at all. Understand this: The resurrection and crucifixion of Christ are inextricably linked. Preach one, the other must be preached in order for the gospel to many any sense. So, we should understand that Peter did preach a crucified Messiah (4:12-26.
This is why the priest and the captain of the temple guard were "greatly disturbed".

So...in a very short period of time, we have probably around 10,000 people believe the message of life and come to know the Lord. Even Billy Graham would have been proud of Peter. And we haven't even left Jerusalem yet.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You bragged...
Islam grew as fast, therefore you need to come up with a rationale for the rag tag Mohamed "sect", a "a nothing-burger" religion, grew as quickly Christianity did.

Your entire argument is a royal "nothing-burger" with all your irrational garbage trimmings. As usual.

Did the prophet Mohamed exist or was he non-existent as Actor claims Jesus was? Was Mohamed a myth like Actor says Jesus was?

Try to keep up with the context of this dialogue. Why do you persist in embarrassing yourself when you compare apples to oranges?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Did the prophet Mohamed exist or was he non-existent as Actor claims Jesus was? Was Mohamed a myth like Actor says Jesus was?

Try to keep up with the context of this dialogue. Why do you persist in embarrassing yourself when you compare apples to oranges?

While the existence of the figure Muhammad may be proven by contemporaneous or near-contemporaneous historical records, attempts to distinguish between the historical elements and the unhistorical elements of many of the reports of Muhammad have not been very successful.

Very similar to Jesus

We may know there was a historical figure named Jesus, but the actual acts on events portrayed in the bible are not verifiable. OUTSIDE OF THE BIBLE, no matter your erroneous claims.

Maybe because the birth of Islam is later than Christianity, we might assume there may be slightly more accuracy in the history and archaeology of Mohamed than Jesus. So what? Your claim about the speed of the spread of a religion has very little to do with either being supernatural and is is dead wrong.

You would have to demonstrate that supernatural affecting that rate of growth of either religion. You can't, no one can

Or are you saying god helped both spread faster than "normal"

[thaskalos]

IMO...the widespread popularity of Christianity is directly attributable to a single ingenious story narrated in one of the four biblical gospels; the story of the "repentant thief", who gained "eternal life" while on the cross, simply by acknowledging that Jesus was being wrongly put to death alongside him. Here was a lifelong criminal who never had to repent for his crimes, nor did he have to accept Jesus as his "Lord and Savior". "Remember me when you get to your heavenly kingdom", the thief -- who had nothing to lose -- supposedly said to Jesus. And he was "saved" for all eternity.

The religious crowd reads this story, and they say to themselves; "Hey, this is easy...I can do that!" And so it goes. Offer people an easy way to get to heaven...and you'll be rich and popular in no-time. And there will never be any unsatisfied customers coming back to you looking for a refund.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

While the existence of the figure Muhammad may be proven by contemporaneous or near-contemporaneous historical records, attempts to distinguish between the historical elements and the unhistorical elements of many of the reports of Muhammad have not been very successful.

Very similar to Jesus

We may know there was a historical figure named Jesus, but the actual acts on events portrayed in the bible are not verifiable. OUTSIDE OF THE BIBLE, no matter your erroneous claims.

Maybe because the birth of Islam is later than Christianity, we might assume there may be slightly more accuracy in the history and archaeology of Mohamed than Jesus. So what? Your claim about the speed of the spread of a religion has very little to do with either being supernatural and is is dead wrong.

You would have to demonstrate that supernatural affecting that rate of growth of either religion. You can't, no one can

Or are you saying god helped both spread faster than "normal"

You can never give a straight, honest, can you? But I'll cut through your drivel. Jesus and Mohamed are both historical persons.

Secondly, there is more biblical evidence to support the events in Jesus' life than there is for Mohamed. And this evidence is provided by first century eyewitnesses.

But you lose all credibility and unwittingly put yourself into the same class and the kind of extreme position as Actor when you deny the central events to Christ's ministry, which was his actual death, burial and bodily resurrection. You might as well say, along with Actor, that Jesus never existed. After all, the central purpose to Jesus' advent and ministry was to do his Father's will, which included laying down his life as a sacrificial lamb to atone for the sins of his Father's people and to rise up again on the third day to prove to the world that his sacrifice was accepted by God.

So, again, how did Christianity grow as rapidly as it did and spread as rapidly as it did through the ancient Roman empire on the basis of either Actor's Jesus myth theory or your allegorical fictional passion of Christ? How did that happen? And why would the Jewish religious establishment allow the Jesus sect to gain such credibility with the people? On the basis of fake events!? And the Jewish religious leaders did this to their own detriment and at the expense of their beloved Judaism? The Jewish leadership paid a terrible price for allowing this mythical/allegorical passion stuff to get out of control.

In short, your theory is just as bunkers as Actor's and make zero sense.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You can never give a straight, honest, can you? But I'll cut through your drivel. Jesus and Mohamed are both historical persons.

Really? Have you ever read the narrative about Mohamed's ascension to heaven aboard a donkey? Was that a historical fact too? Where does the myth end...and the fact begin?

Even if it could be actually proven that someone of a given name really existed in ancient times, this would provide no evidence to support the belief that the miraculous deeds attributed to such a person really existed, as well. And this applies to Mohamed...Jesus...the Buddha...and all the other religious "icons". The only constant in the world of religion is that the adoring followers always exaggeratingly flatter their beloved "masters".

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

God ... He can't change form.

According to you, God cannot do a lot of things such as your claim above.Yet other things can and do change forms.

You cannot have a real God whose creations can do what the creator can't. If he doesn't know how to do it, then how can he have instilled it in his creations?

Originally Posted by boxcar

If God is the embodiment of all created things, then God created himself.

Apparently you do not know the meaning of the word "embodiment". It is "the representation or expression of something in a tangible or visible form".

So everything is an expression of God. And since that is the case, there is a direct connection between all creation and God. There is no separation between God and his creation. All leads back to him.

Originally Posted by boxcar

He who created the mind, can't give our mind understanding. He can't give us true knowledge of him through his inspired revelation and the aid of the Holy Spirit that he gives only to his born again children.

Of course God can give us understanding of him and I already explained to you HOW God gives us understanding of him. Your INTERPRETATION of the Bible is YOUR understanding of him. Not God's.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

According to you, God cannot do a lot of things such as your claim above.Yet other things can and do change forms.

You cannot have a real God whose creations can do what the creator can't. If he doesn't know how to do it, then how can he have instilled it in his creations?

What part of immutable, which is attribute of God, don't you get? The entire universe is mutable but God is not.

And if you're correct, and we can't have a "real God" whose creations (creatures?) can do what the creator cannot, then your God is a sinner! Humans cannot not sin; whereas God cannot sin.

Apparently you do not know the meaning of the word "embodiment". It is "the representation or expression of something in a tangible or visible form".

So everything is an expression of God. And since that is the case, there is a direct connection between all creation and God. There is no separation between God and his creation. All leads back to him.

Of course God can give us understanding of him and I already explained to you HOW God gives us understanding of him. Your INTERPRETATION of the Bible is YOUR understanding of him. Not God's.

And your interpretation of your feelings leaves you with no objective way to tell your interpretation is true.

Also, your "best friend" promised that the Holy Spirit would lead all God's people into truth. The bible is actually self-interpretative, self-affirming, so that I don't have to rely on my feelings or my own.

Plus God gives his people understanding of HIS Word. Why would he inspire his prophets and apostles to write his Word if he doesn't provide divine empowerment for his people to understand?

End of story.

Have a nice day.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

First of all, the Christian religion spread throughout the Roman empire in less than 100 years.

1. What is your source for that information?

2. Is it verifiable?

3. What was Christianity's population density? (0.083% ?) Source? Verfiable?

Originally Posted by boxcar

Secondly, nowhere in scripture does it say that that Christianity would be the dominating religion in the world - only that Christ would have followers throughout every nation in the world.

Buddhism has followers throughout every nation in the world.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Thirdly, LDS grew so fast because it is far more modern religion and technology has helped its growth.

Why'd you choose such a backward time in such a strange land?
If you'd come today you could have reached a whole nation.
Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication.
Don't you get me wrong.
I only want to know.
Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ,
Who are you? What have you sacrificed?
Jesus Christ Superstar,
Do you think you're what they say you are?

Originally Posted by boxcar

Lastly Christianity today makes up roughly 1/3 of the religious believers in the world, ranking number in the world.

Argumentum ad populum!

Christianity's status as #1 is shrinking. The fastest growing religion in the world (and in the U.S.) is Islam. The "nones" are growing even faster.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You can never give a straight, honest, can you? But I'll cut through your drivel. Jesus and Mohamed are both historical persons.

Absolutely honest.

I said they both were historical figures. The problem is as has been pointed out by many here, miracles and supernatural ACCOUNTS ARE ONLY VERIFIABLE IN THE bible AND THE Koran.

Neither s actions or events, let alone abilities to be a spokesperson for god, are accurate historically or archaeologically.
The speed a religion spread. is meaningless and besides the point