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Old 01-07-2012, 12:13 PM   #601
cj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman
It's a sticky issue from several perspectives and has become one of the biggest problems facing the industry.
Apparently not according to several here. It isn't a big deal.
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Old 01-07-2012, 12:27 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by mountainman
I'm a bit surprised that md contorted a str/alw heading to fit the horse. I'd be even more surprised if resident horsemen have not taken issue with this.

As to entry box conspiracies (in general), an archived blog of mine, 'Superman Never Scratches,' might lend some behind the scenes insight.
It's a sticky issue from several perspectives and has become one of the biggest problems facing the industry.
Great read Mountainman – ohh how times have changed!!

The horsemen in harness killed their game, will greed and poor decisions be the same with thoroughbred racing?
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Old 01-07-2012, 12:28 PM   #603
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Originally Posted by cj
Apparently not according to several here. It isn't a big deal.
It's a HUGE deal, a dirty, hard to confront issue that is limited to no particular track, horse, or class level, and is fast eroding trust in our game. It's probably unwise for a person in my position to even comment on this topic, but the truth is the truth. And again, I'm singling out no particular horse, owner, trainer, or instance.

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Old 01-07-2012, 12:54 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by keilan
Great read Mountainman – ohh how times have changed!!
Tx, dude. That particular blog was mined from my day job. I tried to peel back the curtain a little.
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Old 01-07-2012, 01:07 PM   #605
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To CJ...

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Originally Posted by thaskalos
Let's see now...

Every day, in every track in the country...horses are being sent to the gate with instructions for their jockeys to do LESS than their best during the running of the race.

So, every day we see horses, with their "forms" so concealed...they run as if their past performances are forgeries.

And you want me to work-up some REAL outrage, for a bunch of scratches, that were made in order to create a spectacle to which I place no significance at all?

I couldn't care less!

The entire Rapid Redux scenario is meaningless to me...so how can I get upset by it?

I leave things like these to the horseracing "historians"...who like to debate whether or not Citation's reputation was tarnished at all by "records" such as this.

And I reserve my anger for the REAL issues...which impact us as PLAYERS.

And if that perpetuates the "stupid horseplayer" mentality...so be it!

I never pretended to be the sharpest tool in the shed...
I posted the above comment a while back...and you elected to only select and respond to the first sentence...and your response was that this "take it easy on him, today is not his day...we have a better spot for him coming up"..." scenario does not happen as often as I think it does.

Fine...

The question is...should it happen AT ALL!

From a bettor's standpoint, isn't this a bigger cause for concern than the Rapid Redux affair...which is unlikely to repeat itself in our lifetime?

How often do we see a jockey fail to give even a vigorous handride to his mount during the stretch run of a race...even when the horse is in contention? It is so common...we don't even bother talking about it anymore.

Is that acceptable?

Isn't THAT a bigger cause for concern -- FOR THE HORSEPLAYER -- than the Rapid Redux affair?

THIS is my point, in a nutshell!

The horseplayer is fighting his OWN battle...and he should be primarily concerned with issues that affect him DIRECTLY!

He cannot afford to be distracted by issues like the one involving Rapid Redux...because then he loses FOCUS...and he forgets what the MAJOR issues are...as far as HE is concerned.

There are so many more pressing concerns...which cost the horseplayer MONEY...and which relegate Rapid Redux to the bottom of the list.
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Old 01-07-2012, 01:12 PM   #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
I posted the above comment a while back...and you elected to only select and respond to the first sentence...and your response was that this "take it easy on him, today is not his day...we have a better spot for him coming up"..." scenario does not happen as often as I think it does.

Fine...

The question is...should it happen AT ALL!

From a bettor's standpoint, isn't this a bigger cause for concern than the Rapid Redux affair...which is unlikely to repeat itself in our lifetime?

How often do we see a jockey fail to give even a vigorous handride to his mount during the stretch run of a race? It is so common...we don't even bother talking about it anymore.

Is that acceptable?

Isn't THAT a bigger cause for concern -- FOR THE HORSEPLAYER -- than the Rapid Redux affair?

THIS is my point, in a nutshell!

The horseplayer is fighting his OWN battle...and he should be primarily concerned with issues that affect him DIRECTLY!

He cannot afford to be distracted by issues like the one involving Rapid Redux...because then he loses FOCUS...and he forgets what the MAJOR issues are...as far as HE is concerned.

There are so many more pressing concerns...which cost the horseplayer MONEY...and which relegate Rapid Redux to the bottom of the list.
No, it shouldn't happen at all. You can certainly start a thread about it. I just didn't want to get too much off subject here. As a handicapper I guess it has been around so long that I just consider it part of the game and think I'm very good at spotting horses not well meant for today.

I will add that trainers can give all the instructions they want, but when the gate opens those things usually go out the window.

My concern with Rapid Redux is that it is being made out as some glamorous story, which it isn't. It is being led by shady characters with dubious histories in our sport. As I've said before, if anybody cared about this sport enough to investigate it would be yet another huge black eye on the game. Thankfully, or sadly, nobody cares.

Last edited by cj; 01-07-2012 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 01-07-2012, 01:21 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by cj
My concern with Rapid Redux it is being made out as some glamorous story, which it isn't.
Now that I think about it, you didn't think that the "Zenyatta story" was very glamorous either...eventhough the circumstances surrounding it were as different as they could be...

Perhaps your standards are just too high...
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Old 01-07-2012, 01:27 PM   #608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
Now that I think about it, you didn't think that the "Zenyatta story" was very glamorous either...eventhough the circumstances surrounding it were as different as they could be...

Perhaps your standards are just too high...
That was a much better story, I just had a totally different argument. I don't think the connections did anything shady, not even close.

In that case I just preferred people actually race their horse against top competition if you are going to tell us your horse is the best. Turns out she wasn't, but she was damn close.
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Old 01-07-2012, 01:58 PM   #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos

Isn't THAT a bigger cause for concern -- FOR THE HORSEPLAYER -- than the Rapid Redux affair?

There are so many more pressing concerns...which cost the horseplayer MONEY...and which relegate Rapid Redux to the bottom of the list.
So we should only discuss issues on the top of the list?

You don't have to work up outrage for anything. If you aren't interested in this issue I don't recall you being forced to comment...or even read it. But I sometimes wonder why we as horseplayers continue to do something in which we feel so screwed over by. If it is so bad, why continue to bet?
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Old 01-07-2012, 02:25 PM   #610
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friends there is some great writing on here by cj.

the handful or so of us on here that handicap these mid-atlantic tracks every day started rolling our eyes about a decade ago about the ridiculous and unprecedented things that we see at these tracks every week.

here's hoping that the davis van is back up and running.

roll on horse van, roll on!!
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Old 01-07-2012, 03:50 PM   #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

But I sometimes wonder why we as horseplayers continue to do something in which we feel so screwed over by. If it is so bad, why continue to bet?
I imagine that is the finalization. [not betting] There are many experienced horse players on this forum that are better tuned in to the trainers and whether their horses are well meant today. For maney horseplayers, your weekend warriors and weeknight entertainment players most are disadvantaged by some of these machinations that take place at various tracks.
Is it bad? It is disturbing enough that it probably affects new players from coming in and existing ones to find another game.
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:10 PM   #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman
It's a HUGE deal, a dirty, hard to confront issue that is limited to no particular track, horse, or class level, and is fast eroding trust in our game.
Racing secretaries write races for specific horses and go out of their way to fill other races with horses that are not well meant all the time.

I assume they do it because they think it's good for business or have to fill card. I assume a lot of horsemen/owners aren't making a big stink about it because they agree or know that one hand washes the other and they may eventually need a race for one of their horses, or both.

That doesn't make it a perfect world, but to be honest, the only problem I see with that is if certain connections were being heavily favored over others. If that was the case, I think you'd start hearing the complaints and some horsemen would leave. The alternative is probably 4 horse fields and 7 races a day.

I don't know the scratch policies of most of the tracks, but I assume most tracks have some control over the reasons for scratches and can do something when/if they feel certain connections are behaving in a coordinated and manipulative way to favor their own horses.

But even a version of that is somewhat common.

It's not that unusual to run rabbits (same trainer/owner, same trainer different owner, or same owner and different trainer), enter two horses of the same running style and scratch one so they don't eliminate each other, etc.. Maybe we should DQ Damascus for his wins against Fager.

IMO it's up to the tracks to try to manage these things so the product doesn't deteriorate. They don't want to wind up with a lot small fields, easy trip winners, etc... If they don't it will be bad for business.

However, as a gambler, the only thing that would really ruffle my feathers would be pre arranged agreements between connections about whether to send horses, take back, purposely give a shipper a rough trip, etc... because then you are manipulating outcomes that can give some people (those that know) an advantage over others that don't at the windows. Once that happens, the sport is toast. The stewards are supposed to be watching for that kind of thing. If the aren't then there is a bigger problem.

Until there is a surplus of horses and tougher scratch rules in place, I don't see a way out of this, but writing easy races for RR and allowing horses to scratch didn't have any impact on my bottom line.
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:25 PM   #613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahoss9698
So we should only discuss issues on the top of the list?

You don't have to work up outrage for anything. If you aren't interested in this issue I don't recall you being forced to comment...or even read it. But I sometimes wonder why we as horseplayers continue to do something in which we feel so screwed over by. If it is so bad, why continue to bet?
You are free to talk about whatever you want.

And, no...I am not forced to comment on this thread if I am not interested in it...

But if I do choose to comment...and I express my indifference in the matter...should I be told that this indifference of mine "perpetuates the 'stupid horseplayer' stereotype"?

Or that I go out of my way to defend cheaters?

And, because I happen to bet on the game, does that mean that I should "tone it down" when it comes to pointing out the injustices commited against the player?

I bet horses because there is no other legal game out there that can be beaten...without great inconvenience in time and travel.

If there was...believe me, I would be doing something else...
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:33 PM   #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
That was a much better story, I just had a totally different argument. I don't think the connections did anything shady, not even close.

In that case I just preferred people actually race their horse against top competition if you are going to tell us your horse is the best. Turns out she wasn't, but she was damn close.
I never had a problem with that desire, but if they did what you wanted they probably would have wound up with Rachael Alexandra, Blind Luck, or Havre de Grace.

She never would have retained close to her peak 4YO form until she was a 6YO, she may not have made it to either Classic, and if she did, she probably would have finished off the board because she was over the top.

It would be nice to be able to ship all over, run in all the toughest races, and then still be at your peak when it really counts, it just doesn't seem to work very well for a lot of great horses. So what it really all came down to was personal preference on how to maximize the career of the horse.
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:43 PM   #615
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I never had a problem with that desire, but if they did what you wanted they probably would have wound up with Rachael Alexandra, Blind Luck, or Havre de Grace.

She never would have retained close to her peak 4YO form until she was a 6YO, she may not have made it to either Classic, and if she did, she probably would have finished off the board because she over the top.

It would be nice to be able to ship all over, run in all the toughest races, and then still be at your peak when it really counts, it just doesn't seem to work very well for a lot of great horses.
I've made this same point a number of times but a lot of so-called smart handicappers here will dismiss what seems pretty obvious to you and I
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