New Gulfstream P6

[OTM Al]

So GP came out with their wagering menu for the upcoming meet which you can see here

http://www.gulfstreampark.com/racing...-wagering-menu

Now let me say I actually like GP. I know many don't but I've always enjoyed it there and while there are a couple things they could still do to make it better (bleechers anyone.....) I like it.

However, in an attempt to buff up their P6 they've done something that just makes it unpalatable to me. This is how they describe it:

"The 10 cent Pick-6 will be awarded to one unique ticket. On days there are multiple winners, 60 percent of the pool will be shared equally while 40 percent goes back into the jackpot."

Now I'm a little befuddled by this. First, from the info here, there are no consolation payoffs because last time I checked 60+40=100%. Can't say for sure what happens when there is only one winner, though language indicates he/she gets it all, or no winners, as that is not mentioned. Let's focus on the one we know about though, when more than 1 person wins, which would be the second most likely outcome to no one wins.

In this case players are facing an effective takeout of.......wait for it.....52%. That's the original 20% rake plus 40% of the remaining 80%. If there are no consos ever, then on the most likely outcome, no one wins, that's a 100% take. Who's up for this one!

Well, I know one guy

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/John...sier/#comments

Wait, if you read the comments I guess there may be another supporter....

Check out the title. Seems to me that winning got a hell of a lot harder. Of course when I pointed these things out I was accused of being glib.

I like words so I looked up "glib" in my dictionary. It said something like "readily fluent, often thoughtlessly, superficially or insincerely". Hmmmm....now I do try to be fluent, but I also try to put a lot of thought and sincerity in my writing, who was really being glib here?

Oh yeah, this is, as we learned a month ago, a HANA board member shilling a bet that has a 52% take. I wonder why? So andymays, do you still think he's "always on the side of the horseplayer"?

[Zman179]

The 60% portion will be a daily mandatory payout pool. If nobody hits all 6, then it will pay out on 5, etc. There are otherwise no consolations.
If only one ticket hits, then he/she gets the day's 60% plus the entire jackpot pool.

[dylbert]

My conclusion is that GP new P6 is just another gimmick bet. With takeout, it resembles lottery ticket more than pari-mutuel one.

Does anyone remember when only exotic bet at Oaklawn Park was Daily Double?

My new world betting menu would have $1 WPS, rolling $1 daily doubles, rolling $0.50 pick threes, an early & late $0.50 pick four, either $1 pick 5 or 6, and dime superfectas in all races with 6 or more betting interests.

Finally, I would not call you "glib". I would suggest we are all trying to get understanding of how this new P6 works.

However, did you "consider the source" when you plucked information from HRI?

[JohnGalt1]

I'd guess that their new $.50 pick five will have larger pools. At least it will have my money on days I can make an advantageous wager.

[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by dylbert

However, did you "consider the source" when you plucked information from HRI?

Thing is I actually went and looked this up on the GP site before saying anything. Nowhere there could I find the complete rules. Can't say I plucked any info from HRI as it was pretty much lacking.

You are right though. This is exactly lotto more for the tourist crowd on a day to day basis and should only attract actual players after several days of carry.

Originally Posted by Zman179

The 60% portion will be a daily mandatory payout pool. If nobody hits all 6, then it will pay out on 5, etc. There are otherwise no consolations.
If only one ticket hits, then he/she gets the day's 60% plus the entire jackpot pool.

The first part about consos is good, so consos only exist when no one wins. Given the 60-40 split, this has a lower take than the standard P6 when no one wins. If only one hits though, should the winner get it all? Why should 40% still carry? Does that mean the only 100% payoff day is on the final day of the meet?

[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by JohnGalt1

I'd guess that their new $.50 pick five will have larger pools. At least it will have my money on days I can make an advantageous wager.

That one does look like a good bet. Only 15% take on it as well. I wonder if this is the death of the Magna 5 then?

I forgot to say it before, but I do applaud GP management for trying new things here. I don't think the P6 is a good idea, but not every idea is going to be.

[Zman179]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

If only one hits though, should the winner get it all? Why should 40% still carry? Does that mean the only 100% payoff day is on the final day of the meet?

If only one hits, that person hits the whole thing. Winner takes ALL.
I guess you could always wait until the last day when it becomes a true 10 cent Pick 6.

[alhattab]

This bet is I believe modeled after the Poolpote in Puerto Rico. My recall is that this bet is very popular there. Non-horseplayers treat this like a lottery. PR has something like 100 places to bet across the island, little outside bars, bodegas, whatever, and people go in and buy a small ticket. Below is the first article that came up on a "poolpote" search.

http://www.sportsbookgurus.com/news/...n-on-10-30-bet

Just saw the Camarero website- 650 "agencias hipicas"- off track wagering sites

[DeanT]

Originally Posted by alhattab

Non-horseplayers treat this like a lottery.

That's the one.

It is what a lot of us think racing should do (as long as it is balanced with an opposite and value based alternative), and what a guy like Eugene Christiansen asks racing to do: Not to shoehorn customers into one system, or bet.

GP did something we need to see a little more of, obviously. The took a bet which had zero following, knowing their pick 6 can not, and never has rivalled NYRA or So Cal pick 6's and turned it into something else: A bet they can sell to lotto players at their slots parlor who might never make a horse bet in their lives anymore.

On the flipside, they created a pick 5 for players who want churn and value.

So, no shoehorn:

1) Get slots players to have a look at racing should their be a $2M carryover in this gimmick. Heck they might even buy a program.

and

2) Give real players a shot at a 15% takeout bet with a nice possible pool, as well as offering them a chance on mandatory payout day for a pick 6 payout at a decent rake because of the carryover lotto cash.

If player one learns the bet is simply a lotto bet at a high take (52% is still less than the 70% rake they play in FLA lotteries), they might be enticed to join the rest of us playing the pick 5 - a new customer might be borne. If not, they are simply doing what they always do : bet a bad bet.

Vegas has done this for a generation, and so has your neighborhood bookie, with parlay cards or Keno versus low take count cards blackjack and five cent baseball money lines.

From a growth of racing standpoint, racetracks maturing into entities which actually separate their customer base with two types of bets is a good sign. When more and more of them do it, they are at the very least learning that Paceadvantage.com type bettors are not degenerate gamblers, and by targeting them with low take bets, and leaving the high take ones to the slot playing masses, is a step forward to this business - that being one that is run like a gambling one, not some two bit lemonade stand like we have been.

The problem I see is a whole lot of tracks might love to hoodwink people into this high take bet, promising something that it is not - without offering a lower take alternative. GP has not done that; they have done both.

[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by alhattab

This bet is I believe modeled after the Poolpote in Puerto Rico. My recall is that this bet is very popular there. Non-horseplayers treat this like a lottery. PR has something like 100 places to bet across the island, little outside bars, bodegas, whatever, and people go in and buy a small ticket. Below is the first article that came up on a "poolpote" search.

http://www.sportsbookgurus.com/news/...n-on-10-30-bet

Just saw the Camarero website- 650 "agencias hipicas"- off track wagering sites

Friend of mine that goes down there a bit said the P6 in Puerto Rico is the only bet anyone takes seriously because the take is so high across the menu. It's pretty much the only bet the big players play there.

[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by DeanT

It is what a lot of us think racing should do (as long as it is balanced with an opposite and value based alternative), and what a guy like Eugene Christiansen asks racing to do: Not to shoehorn customers into one system, or bet.

GP did something we need to see a little more of, obviously. The took a bet which had zero following, knowing their pick 6 can not, and never has rivalled NYRA or So Cal pick 6's and turned it into something else: A bet they can sell to lotto players at their slots parlor who might never make a horse bet in their lives anymore.

Excellent analysis Dean. The key is to get the lotto players on board on this one, or as I said, the tourist money. How long did that Beulah thing have to carry that got so big a few months back? Wasn't it about 20 days? So at best you are only going to get a monster pot once per meet if you are lucky. But as you say, they scrapped something that was never going to work to try something new, which is good. My main complaint was certain "advertising" that was saying the bet was made easier for horseplayers. That it was not.

[DeanT]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

My main complaint was certain "advertising" that was saying the bet was made easier for horseplayers. That it was not.

In the broad message (new fractional wagers on p3,p4, p5) technically that fits the bill (easier to cash tickets and easier to spread; for less than large players), but with the pick 6 some education is in order, imo, because it clearly (non big carryover/mandatory) is a bad bet for regular players.

HANA will write something up on that, as a player resource.

If anyone wants to take a crack at it and write something up about its perils, please do and we can add it as a commentary on the website.

[rrpic6]

Dean T:

I've been writing a positive story about the Gulfstream 10cent pick 6 in my head all morning, to post here now, but you really nailed it in your posts today. The enticing of new money, blood, interest, etc. in horseracing is always being touted but never put into place properly. This mixing of handicappers, lottery players and nickel slots people is a great start. Anyone that complains is nothing more than an old fashioned whiner.

Any bet that increases a chance for big payouts with little money spent, plus a real chance of luck taking part in the outcome, PLUS....the reality of figuring out a way to avoid the IRS on a daily basis is 100% positive!

The payout for Beulah's 25cent Fortune bet on May 1st of this year was $3750! Do the math $3750 times 8 (a two dollar pick 6) is a cool 30K for mostly logical picks coming in on that day....which was the mandatory payout day.

Lets get on board and support Gulfstream this meet. This is real hope and change!

RR

[BombsAway Bob]

Originally Posted by rrpic6

Dean T:

I've been writing a positive story about the Gulfstream 10cent pick 6 in my head all morning, to post here now, but you really nailed it in your posts today. The enticing of new money, blood, interest, etc. in horseracing is always being touted but never put into place properly. This mixing of handicappers, lottery players and nickel slots people is a great start. Anyone that complains is nothing more than an old fashioned whiner.

Any bet that increases a chance for big payouts with little money spent, plus a real chance of luck taking part in the outcome, PLUS....the reality of figuring out a way to avoid the IRS on a daily basis is 100% positive!

The payout for Beulah's 25cent Fortune bet on May 1st of this year was $3750! Do the math $3750 times 8 (a two dollar pick 6) is a cool 30K for mostly logical picks coming in on that day....which was the mandatory payout day.

Lets get on board and support Gulfstream this meet. This is real hope and change!

RR

My issue with this bet is the Month it takes of People handing over their money to build up the pool to an attractive level. Losing bets never created
a new customer, regardless of the vessel being bet on.

[therussmeister]

Originally Posted by BombsAway Bob

My issue with this bet is the Month it takes of People handing over their money to build up the pool to an attractive level. Losing bets never created
a new customer, regardless of the vessel being bet on.

This is true for almost every track's pick 6. At least they will only be losing dimes.