The Last Dance

[PressThePace]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Look...I've lived in Chicago for 46 years, and heard all the Jordan teammate "interviews". It's all bullshit. The guy was a sports icon...and everybody reveres an "icon", especially in public. But the teammates talk a different language when the cameras stop rolling. I also understand the importance of "challenging" your teammates into becoming their best selves. But when your motivational tactics lead to fists flying...then you are in the wrong...unless you are trying to motivate MMA fighters.

He competed with a ferocity that worked for him and the team he was leading. We can agree that he may never have won Human of the Year. But, it's just like he stated in the series, "You don't wanna play that way? Don't play that way." I liken his mentality to an asshole squad leader that you may not like, but you sure as hell want in a bunker with you over all others.

[PressThePace]

One more thing and I'll be done with this stuff. If you have ever competed at a high level in a physical team sport in which you practice against each other, it's pretty easy to understand how fists can fly. It's happened on every team I've ever been a part of, regardless of level, as a player and coach. Egos are a part of the game and they do get in the way.

[cj]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Is there a point somewhere here, Randall? Oprah has even MORE money than MJ, after starting from much more humble beginnings...and yet...I'm still waiting for you to call her a "winner".

I remember Oprah as a local TV host doing a show at noon or somewhere around there in Baltimore called "People Are Talking" with Richard Scher. I actually found a story about it.



https://marmia.org/2017/06/27/wjzs-people-are-talking/

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by cj

I remember Oprah as a local TV host doing a show at noon or somewhere around there in Baltimore called "People Are Talking" with Richard Scher. I actually found a story about it.



https://marmia.org/2017/06/27/wjzs-people-are-talking/

Randall talked about "winners", and "losers"...and a lot goes into those terms that can't be measured by "money" or, "championship rings"...even though society as a whole may disagree. I'm not an Oprah fan...but I know that she overcame some horrific experiences as a young woman...and THAT'S what I give her credit for when I call her a "winner". The "winner" overcomes dire circumstances...and it needn't be just in the sports or the business arenas. To me...Oprah would be a "winner" even if she remained in that little news station in Baltimore.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by PressThePace

One more thing and I'll be done with this stuff. If you have ever competed at a high level in a physical team sport in which you practice against each other, it's pretty easy to understand how fists can fly. It's happened on every team I've ever been a part of, regardless of level, as a player and coach. Egos are a part of the game and they do get in the way.

I did compete in organized team sports when I was young...but I can't lie and pretend that it was at a "high level". Life, though, has taught me that the "best motivator" in any endeavor isn't necessarily the guy who is the 'best' at the particular craft. Why do you suppose it is that the best players often turn out to be the worst COACHES when they try to teach their particular sport to others? Jordan was enormously gifted...and that inherent gift was probably what fortified him with the "drive" to reach the on-court heights that he ascended to. But a guy like that, in order to properly "motivate" others, also needs the "street-smarts" to understand that such heights are not necessarily a possibility for the players around him. And I feel that Jordan came up a little short in that regard.

[PressThePace]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I did compete in organized team sports when I was young...but I can't lie and pretend that it was at a "high level". Life, though, has taught me that the "best motivator" in any endeavor isn't necessarily the guy who is the 'best' at the particular craft. Why do you suppose it is that the best players often turn out to be the worst COACHES when they try to teach their particular sport to others? Jordan was enormously gifted...and that inherent gift was probably what fortified him with the "drive" to reach the on-court heights that he ascended to. But a guy like that, in order to properly "motivate" others, also needs the "street-smarts" to understand that such heights are not necessarily a possibility for the players around him. And I feel that Jordan came up a little short in that regard.

All great points that I happen to agree with. But, what are we really discussing here? I don't believe he was a bully in the sense that I define a bully. That's all.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by PressThePace

All great points that I happen to agree with. But, what are we really discussing here? I don't believe he was a bully in the sense that I define a bully. That's all.

Fair enough. But he was a bully according to the way that I define the word. He picked on people who were enamored with his "Air-ness"...but quickly backed down when he bit off more than he could chew against Robert Parish. Classic "bully-ism"...IMO.

Hey...it's alright to disagree, NO? Should we disagree only about the BRIS Prime Power figure?

[PressThePace]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Hey...it's alright to disagree, NO? Should we disagree only about the BRIS Prime Power figure?

Haha..most definitely!!!

[mountainman]

Jordan's god-like skill-set and the perfect complementary pieces that Krause kept procuring more than suffice in explaining the Bull's singular legacy.

Of course MJ's blazing passion and ferocity propelled the team. But there can be ZERO proof that his nasty streak drove teammates to better performances. In some instances, his outbursts and insults struck me as more about Jordan's ego and narcissism than about motivating ANYBODY.

Also, if the man was such a great "motivator," then why did it have no impact on the Wizards or Hornets???????????????

[PressThePace]

Originally Posted by mountainman

J

Also, if the man was such a great "motivator," then why did it have no impact on the Wizards or Hornets???????????????

Do you think it's fair to ask that question?

The Wizards roster was composed of an up and coming star in Stackhouse, an aging Jordan, and some also-rans. I don't remember anyone, including MJ, saying that their success was attributed to his motivational skills while with the Bulls.

Also, I would surmise that it's quite different motivating teammates as opposed to employees. I believe Jordan motivated teammates from an accountability standpoint. He has stated it and his teammates have echoed it..."I never demanded anything out of my teammates that I wasn't willing to do myself." As far as his lack of success as an owner goes, I would tend to agree with Barkley, who said he hires yes men.

[mountainman]

Originally Posted by PressThePace

I don't remember anyone, including MJ, saying that their success was attributed to his motivational skills while with the Bulls.

Also, I would surmise that it's quite different motivating teammates as opposed to employees. I believe Jordan motivated teammates from an accountability standpoint. He has stated it and his teammates have echoed it..."I never demanded anything out of my teammates that I wasn't willing to do myself." As far as his lack of success as an owner goes, I would tend to agree with Barkley, who said he hires yes men.

The documentary MORE than obsessed on the notion that Jordan's prodding elevated the entire team. But there simply is no way to prove that, and I'm not buying it.

And of course the guys he physically abused and verbally badgered speak of rising to Mj's standards. It's a much better look for a Kerr or Perdue than perhaps saying "I could have loosened up and played better if Mike had just stopped screaming and slapping me around."

Also, if the Wizards were COMPLETELY beyond (psychological) help, then by comparison, maybe the Bulls didn't need that sort of component, at all.

Tx for the response, sir. Please have the last word.

[highernote]

Originally Posted by PressThePace

I played in college and coach in HS now

Hey Coach, what sport do you coach?

[cj]

Still haven't watched, and the news of yesterday that Jordan did actually say he wouldn't play in the Olympics if Zeke was on the team despite his denials in the Last Dance casts a big shadow on it for me. Sounds more like a film autobiography than a biography.

[PressThePace]

Not here to change anybody's mind. I just find it interesting how people can interpret situations, especially in sports. I don't think it's like anything else.

But, I listened to Scottie Pippen, Steve Kerr, BJ Armstrong, and Bill Wennington say that Jordan's personality helped fuel the team, especially in pressure situations. They all acknowledged that it felt harsh, but also said they probably needed it. I doubt they were strong-armed into saying those things. Of course you can't PROVE that it propelled them to championship status. How could that ever be proven, anyway?

I also listened to Jordan state that there would be no MJ without Scottie Pippen. He raved about what Rodman brought to the team. He gave Phil Jackson props. Did he need to go down the list in the docuseries and acknowledge every teammate to put himself in a different light?

There are all types of teammates and coaches. It's not a one-size-fits-all. Approaches to the game can vary drastically within a team. Jordan could be an ass. So what?! Does that mean he was a bad teammate, competitively speaking?

I remember him getting all over Stacey King during a game early in King's career. I knew Stacey because we had played together in the summers of '88 and 89' at Brookwood apartment complex in Moore, OK. and then at Loyd Noble Arena in Norman after his pro career had started. We always were asking him about what MJ was like. Stacey said MJ was on him all the time. But that was it. Never said a bad word about him.

One thing is for sure. People at the top are almost always polarizing.

[PressThePace]

Originally Posted by cj

Still haven't watched, and the news of yesterday that Jordan did actually say he wouldn't play in the Olympics if Zeke was on the team despite his denials in the Last Dance casts a big shadow on it for me. Sounds more like a film autobiography than a biography.

Yes, that was ridiculous of Jordan. First to use that as leverage, and second to lie about it. No excusing that.