Religion II

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

What part of "inevitable" don't you get? WE all come into this world with sinful natures, therefore, it's inevitable all of us will sin.

Whenever you want to be a condescending ass hole, and can't answer rationally you start off with "What part of ......"

Ok then, what part of my question concerning your idiotic contradiction of your god manufacturing babies as sinners and then murdering them for sinning.....

......don't you understand?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Whenever you want to be a condescending ass hole, and can't answer rationally you start off with "What part of ......"

Ok, PA, Hcap ain't playin' nicely. You did catch this, right? You are going to hand him a pink slip, red card, a pink ribbon -- whatever it is you do to people who don't play nicely with other guests on your board, right?

Ok then, what part of my question concerning your idiotic contradiction of your god manufacturing babies as sinners and then murdering them for sinning.....

......don't you understand?

Now, Mr. Hcap, dear sir, there is no contradiction because your premise is all wrong. God didn't manufacture defective goods. If you read the summary statement of the creation account, all that God made was "very good". This is further confirmed with:

Eccl 7:29
29 "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."
NASB

So, how did we all get into this terrible predicament? Adam is how! We all inherited Adam's sinful nature.

Rom 5:17-20
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
NASB

The phrase "death reigned through one" is very important to understand because Adam and Eve both died spiritually when they disobeyed God. And it's that spiritual death that is Adam's rather dubious legacy that he left for all his posterity. And it is this state of spiritual death that permeates the hearts of all men, which is why Jesus called men "evil" and said that evil proceeds from our hearts. We literally come into this world still-born, spiritually speaking. We're alive in body but our souls are DEAD! Our souls are dead to God, i.e. separated, estranged from Him. This is why Jesus said that God is only the God of the [spiritually] living, not the [spiritually] dead!

The second reason this phrase "death reigned through one" is so significant is because this explains why all men sin; for death reigns in all unregenerated hearts. And this is why no mere mortal cannot not sin. In fact, I'll go even further: Why no unregenerated person cannot not continue to sin. For no one has the power to raise his own soul up from its spiritual grave! We have no power to change our nature. That is beyond us. Beyond our purview. Scripture teaches this truth, as does the Law of Identity.

Of course, Jesus offered a supernatural remedy to man's plight: He told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again. If something wasn't drastically, horribly, incurably wrong at our first physical birth, then why was Jesus so emphatic that Nicodemus had to be born again?

And I know you're going to rail against Adam and Eve's free will. Just make sure when you do that that you also rail against your own, as you freely choose to not accept God's free gift of eternal life through Christ Jesus. You are freely choosing death over life. You love the darkness of your own entombed heart better than you do the light of Christ that can set you free from that tomb. But why do I strongly suspect that you're not going to go on a tear against your power of free choice, as you happily and glibly refuse to receive God's free gift of salvation?

[hcap]

Why did your irrational god cause Adam and Eve's descendants to inherit their mistakes er...sins and eternal penalties bunky?

And why should any non-brainwashed Christian believe this malarkey. Your limited interpretation of the bible suffers from profound lead footed mental gymnastics, producing absurd literal-minded contradictory ridiculous utter confusion!!

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Why did your irrational god cause Adam and Eve's descendants to inherit their mistakes er...sins and eternal penalties bunky?

And why should any non-brainwashed Christian believe this malarkey. Your limited interpretation of the bible suffers from profound lead footed mental gymnastics, producing absurd literal-minded contradictory ridiculous utter confusion!!

Adam is a type of Christ by several contrasts. Adam was created to be the federal head of the entire human race. Because Adam failed the test for righteousness, all his progeny do as well. We all come into this world with a failed grade, in a manner of speaking, being "in Adam".. Likewise, Jesus is the federal head of all God's chosen people. As Paul said in Romans 5, by one man's act of obedience, the many shall be made righteous.

If God is so irrational and such a monster, why did he condescend and humble himself to take on flesh to atone for sins of all those who would come to believe on him and repent of their sins? Why would He do that?

Maybe the real monsters and the paragons of all irrational thought are owned by people who reject God's gracious remedy for sin and death.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Adam failed the test for righteousness, all his progeny do as well.

Why? Couldn't your god forgive babies in advance so their royal Mother and Father weere not the cause for their children's not yet committed mistakes (sins). Why was it necessary to wait what 5,00 years until Jesus showed up and maybe forgave some of them?

God could not plan ahead a few thousand years?
Was he pre-occupied destroying dinosaurs and producing floods on another planet?.

Oh what tangled webs we weave when we confuse and perceive the inner for the outer.

Excuse me bunky all of this is a cosmic allegory and metaphor misinterpreted by mostly literal minded thinkers throughout history.

If you were familiar withe the world's other creation myths you might connect the common dots that are the meaningful dots. When you confuse and perceive inner tales with the outer, you have no choice but to do mental gymnastics attempting to explain all the absurdities and contradictory behavior by a so-called all knowing and all doing imaginary deity. Your deity is not what the world's creation myths are really about.

Rather they address the world within and how we get lost trying to understand that vague mostly unexplored realm by trying to analyze it unfortunately lacking observing skills, and the inevitable ignorance acquired by not directly "witnessing" our spirit within.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Why? Couldn't your god forgive babies in advance so their royal Mother and Father weere not the cause for their children's not yet committed mistakes (sins). Why was it necessary to wait what 5,00 years until Jesus showed up and maybe forgave some of them?

God could not plan ahead a few thousand years?
Was he pre-occupied destroying dinosaurs and producing floods on another planet?.

Oh what tangled webs we weave when we confuse and perceive the inner for the outer.

Excuse me bunky all of this is a cosmic allegory and metaphor misinterpreted by mostly literal minded thinkers throughout history.

If you were familiar withe the world's other creation myths you might connect the common dots that are the meaningful dots. When you confuse and perceive inner tales with the outer, you have no choice but to do mental gymnastics attempting to explain all the absurdities and contradictory behavior by a so-called all knowing and all doing imaginary deity. Your deity is not what the world's creation myths are really about.

Rather they address the world within and how we get lost trying to understand that vague mostly unexplored realm by trying to analyze it unfortunately lacking observing skills, and the inevitable ignorance acquired by not directly "witnessing" our spirit within.

Why, why, why why? Why couldn't God forgive a 5-y.o. in advance who died from leukemia? Or a 7 y.o. who dies from a genital heart disease? Or a 10 y.o. who died from massive injuries sustained in a car accident, etc., etc., etc., etc. ?

And God didn't have to wait for 5,000 years to forgive anyone! God predestined all he would save in eternity. King David, for example, knew that he would see his infant son in Sheol when he died, etc.

The far better question you should be asking is WHY you can't bring yourself to accept God's remedy for sin and death!

And there are no contradictions in biblical theology. The contradictions exist in your profane imagination only.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The far better question you should be asking is WHY you can't bring yourself to accept God's remedy for sin and death!

1) God murdering infants to somehow pay for their fathers transgressions is an absurd concept

2) It's nonsensical to imagine an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being would be as stupid and cruel as some of his confused worshipers

3)The entire topic of original sin is only proposed by one of the world's religions; not mine, I do not accept it, understand or believe it, and frankly detest it.

4)Even thinking it is anywhere near the truth gives me a monumental headache. As do your twisted irrational excuses, and your hateful explanations are ridiculous.

5) Btw, why can't you accept both the old and new tantamount are not actual historical records? There is neither secular historical accounts or archeological evidence supporting biblical stories.

6) And your so-called scientific "facts" you spin out of your biblical tall tales are totally wrong. If the proof is in the pudding, none of your puddings are anything close to how the universe works.

If a handicapper tried to pick winners based on totally incorrect theories and assumptions we conclude he is not using the reality of racing. Same with your crazy biblicaly derived laws of nature

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

1) God murdering infants to somehow pay for their fathers transgressions is an absurd concept

2) It's nonsensical to imagine an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being would be as stupid and cruel as some of his confused worshipers

3)The entire topic of original sin is only proposed by one of the world's religions; not mine, I do not accept it, understand or believe it, and frankly detest it.

4)Even thinking it is anywhere near the truth gives me a monumental headache. As do your twisted irrational excuses, and your hateful explanations are ridiculous.

5) Btw, why can't you accept both the old and new tantamount are not actual historical records? There is neither secular historical accounts or archeological evidence supporting biblical stories.

6) And your so-called scientific "facts" you spin out of your biblical tall tales are totally wrong. If the proof is in the pudding, none of your puddings are anything close to how the universe works.

If a handicapper tried to pick winners based on totally incorrect theories and assumptions we conclude he is not using the reality of racing. Same with your crazy biblicaly derived laws of nature

Fine! Then you will die in YOUR own personal sins and spend all eternity paying your own sin debt, then you can babble to yourself forever about how unfair it was to inherit your fathers' sinful nature.

You remind me of the miserables spoken of in this passage:

2 Thess 2:10-12
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
NASB

It seems to me God has sent that "deluding influence" upon you. For this reason, you should enjoy the few remaining days you have in this life, for you will find no pleasure in the next one if you freely opt to pay your own sin debt.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Fine! Then you will die in YOUR own personal sins and spend all eternity paying your own sin debt, then you can babble to yourself forever about how unfair it was to inherit your fathers' sinful nature.

More fire and brimstone bunky?

You remind me of the miserables spoken of in this passage:

2 Thess 2:10-12
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
NASB

It seems to me God has sent that "deluding influence" upon you. For this reason, you should enjoy the few remaining days you have in this life, for you will find no pleasure in the next one if you freely opt to pay your own sin debt.

I am not interested in your inept interpretations.

Spare me your bunk, bunky

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Fine! Then you will die in YOUR own personal sins and spend all eternity paying your own sin debt, then you can babble to yourself forever about how unfair it was to inherit your fathers' sinful nature.

Appeal to the stick!

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Actor

How do you know that this book is really God's revelation and not just the writings of some A.N.E. Joseph Smith?

I don't think boxie has an answer!

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Actor

I don't think boxie has an answer!

Nor for 10,000 or so important things of the modern world.

Otherwise a 17th century pseudo-expert on everything else.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Fine! Then you will die in YOUR own personal sins and spend all eternity paying your own sin debt

And you say you never condemn anyone to Hell, Hah! Caught red handed.

Oh but wait, you will say, its not you doing the condemning, you are just the messenger.

Yes it is you. You do not have the authority to speak for God, nor do you know God's infinite ways.

Jesus said, Judge not lest ye be judged.

That means you don't get to be the messenger of who goes where.

You cant even follow your own religion nor do you understand it.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

I don't think boxie has an answer!

I know the bible is God's Word because the world at large rejects it and is traveling on that very broad path to destruction, as Jesus said it would.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

And you say you never condemn anyone to Hell, Hah! Caught red handed.

Oh but wait, you will say, its not you doing the condemning, you are just the messenger.

Yes it is you. You do not have the authority to speak for God, nor do you know God's infinite ways.

Jesus said, Judge not lest ye be judged.

That means you don't get to be the messenger of who goes where.

You cant even follow your own religion nor do you understand it.

All Jesus' disciples certainly do have authority to speak on His behalf. What do you think Christ's Great Commission is all about (Mat 28:19), 20?

And then there is this:

2 Cor 5:18-21
8 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
NASB

And this,


Rom 10:14-15
14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!"
NASB

And you, too, because you have summarily rejected the glad tidings of good things (the Gospel), you also will die in your sins unless you repent and trust in Jesus Christ for your salvation and the righteousness of God.