Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

You have the answers to nothing. In the grand scheme of things, the entire sum of human existence knows relatively NOTHING about the universe. Mostly theories that evolve or devolve over time, and a handful of cold hard facts.

Given all that, YOU, Mr. Boxcar, declare that YOU hold the answers to life's greatest mysteries. The only thing you are good for is a laugh and a shake of the head from time to time.

And I shudder to think what is actually stuck to the underside of your pinky nail after all that ass scratching monkeying around you do all day here in off-topic.

Ahhh...thank you so much for confirming what I said in my last post to you yesterday. You and I may know "relatively NOTHING about the universe" per se, but I KNOW the Creator of the universe and his message of Life (the great mystery of the gospel), which is exceedingly more than you know -- by your own admission above.

Jesus came to give eternal life to all those who would believe on him and the warp 'n' woof of this life is a true knowledge of the Living God.

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.
NASB

See also Gal 4:9.

But you, sir, sadly are perishing because you have no such knowledge (Hos 4:6).

Why are you so masochistically cruel to yourself in persisting in your self-imposed ignorance? Surely, you don't think you will escape your Creator's notice on the Great and Fearful Day of the Lord, do you?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

I am not going to debate my take on scripture and spirituality with you. I just presented a significant allegory of one individual as a "house" without a master or "lord". That in itself connotes huge changes to who and what the "lord" is. It does not negate an external lord, but if you would HAVE let me finish, I might had expanded the allegory.

"As above so below"
The leaf is the image of the tree.

You asked how to determine how to know when to use allegory and metaphor. I tried to explain. It's ok you don't want to actually listen, but I have given up on keeping you on the topic we are discussing.

Need I remind you you led me on a Wild goose chase for pages avoiding your claim Luther's anti-semitism actually used allegory and not literal bullshit.

So...to the chase, virtually all the "smart", first century rabbis weren't so smart and they just idly stood by and allowed Christianity to spread like wildfire throughout the entire world on the basis of a fictional story about make-believe events (a/k/a "allegory")?

Okay...whatever floats your boat. But now we all know that the Jews have no one to blame for their woes except their complacent ancestors.

[PaceAdvantage]

If the story of Star Wars had been written 2,000 years ago, we'd all be worshiping Yoda at this point.

In fact, some people today seriously practice the religion of the Jedi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jediism

If some people today actually belong to the Temple of the Jedi Order and it is, in fact a recognized religion in some places, you can just IMAGINE the number of followers it COULD have attracted if this story first started spreading almost 2000 years ago.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

If the story of Star Wars had been written 2,000 years ago, we'd all be worshiping Yoda at this point.

Not so sure time has anything to do with what or whom the sons of men worship. Star Wars has quite a cult-like following, does it not, and it's been around for only about 40 years or so?

[PaceAdvantage]

Any major Jewish historical figure (rabbi, high priest, sage, whatever) ever write a treatise (65,000 words long, or a good 200 page novel) on how disgusting Gentiles are, and Christians in particular for believing in Jesus as the Messiah?

In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[6] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[7] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[8]

In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare to Protestants and Protestant Christianity. Following the exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Protestants to carry out seven remedial actions. These are

to burn down Jewish synagogues and schools and warn people against them;
to refuse to let Jews own houses among Christians;
for Jewish religious writings to be taken away;
for rabbis to be forbidden to preach;
to offer no protection to Jews on highways;
for usury to be prohibited and for all silver and gold to be removed, put aside for safekeeping, and given back to Jews who truly convert; and
to give young, strong Jews flail, axe, spade, and spindle, and let them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow.[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the...and_Their_Lies

Pretty sure the answer to this is a big fat NO.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Any major Jewish historical figure (rabbi, high priest, sage, whatever) ever write a treatise (65,000 words long, or a good 200 page novel) on how disgusting Gentiles are, and Christians in particular for believing in Jesus as the Messiah?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the...and_Their_Lies

Pretty sure the answer to this is a big fat NO.

Again....thanks for the resounding confirmation behind my premise that the deafening silence of all ancient "major Jewish historical figure(s)" truly calls into serious question the lame theory of Jesus' non-existence or Hcap's equally crippled theory of the non-existence of the actual historical events surrounding the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and how the Jews delivered over a righteous and innocent man to the Romans to have him murdered. I'm so glad to see that you get it.

Now you can see why Hcap's theory of the Passion of Christ is nothing less than mere allegory (fake news) defies all reason because it's begging to be asked how all those "smart" rabbis of Jesus' day could have allowed some "rag-tag, unlearned, ignorant" Jesus sect get so out of control that they were able to spread their gospel all over the Roman empire (and eventually well beyond that, as well), most especially when when to Jews' ears that that gospel message would have been found to be blasphemous and extremely offensive to them.

So, you ask.."Well what does this have to do with Luther's antisemitic sentiments"? Well...basically everything because there is a supposed, implied parallel here by contrast, if we are to believe Hcap's theory of allegory. In the case of all those smart, learned ancient rabbis of Jesus' day, and if Hcap's allegory theory is true, then they didn't react at all to what they would have considered to be an extremely offensive, vile and blasphemous gospel message by this Jesus sect. Zero Reaction! They were totally complacent and just allowed their unlearned, superstitious country men to walk all over them like a door mat and toss their Old Covenant Judaism under the bus, while they were at it. Kinda defies human nature. Makes any thinking person go..."Hmmm...."

On the other hand, it appears that Luther allowed his [sinful] human nature to get the upper hand, as he did react to how the Jews (and Gentiles, as well) reacted to the gospel message. Luther should not have reacted in that manner to any antichrist sentiment by anyone, since it is totally contrary to scripture. He permitted his human nature to control him. And therein is the SUPPOSED contrast.

Oh....but do I hear you saying, "Jews are of more nobler character, and they would never react the way Luther did." Really? That's neither the testimony of Luther, nor is it the testimony of scripture. The Jews of Luther's day were no different than those of Jesus' day. (After all, Jews share the same sinful human nature with their Gentile counterparts!) And the Jews, for the most part, have this very long, historical track record of rejecting the gospel of their Messiah. In other words, nothing has changed in nearly 2,000 years. This is the bad news.

But the good news is that one day soon, it will -- since the promise of scripture is "all Israel will be saved".

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Actually, I did. But since you have followed up to your earth-shattering question with another question, you must be chompin' at the bit to get down and dirty with me. Okay...I'll play.

No, I do not hold to the RCC doctrine of the "immaculate conception".

Your turn.

So if we did DNA testing, you believe he would show up as the human son of Joseph and Mary? Was he the Son of God by proxy? Exactly what do you believe about Mary's pregnancy and Jesus' birth?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

So...to the chase, virtually all the "smart", first century rabbis weren't so smart and they just idly stood by and allowed Christianity to spread like wildfire throughout the entire world on the basis of a fictional story about make-believe events (a/k/a "allegory")?

Okay...whatever floats your boat. But now we all know that the Jews have no one to blame for their woes except their complacent ancestors.

You do not kno what the "chase" is. Those rabbis wrote the script only to be fouled up by later "church" elders, confusing their metaphors for the literal.

Like blaming the Jews for actually "killing Christ" Compounded by idiots like Martin Luther.

The "rabbis" who wrote the themes of the fable knew many of the same things as the esoteric mystics in all religions do. Before they were named "rabbi", they went by other names. The esoteric center initiates and introduces various manifestations of what we call "religion"

Usually the "energy" that draws the Exoteric, or the rest of outer humanity, only lasts a certain amount of time. It does not mean the inner truths common to all of these religions lose their value, but rather the ability to transform the outer Exoteric cultures runs out of steam. Real rabbis, priests and teachers, speak the same esoteric language.

Allegory, metaphor and symbol are devices in that lanquage.

In common usage, esoteric means the inner or more advanced aspect of a spiritual teaching. Exoteric means the outer form of a teaching, one that is shown to the public.

The outer circle of exterior men corresponds to the default state of man – of people not engaged in esoteric work. In this circle it is rare that any two individuals should precisely understand each other on any matter of consequence or complexity. All see the world through thick lenses of subjectivity and are subject to the confusion of tongues alluded to in the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel.

The exoteric circle is the outermost circle of interior or consciously working man. The four Ways lead from the outer circle into the exoteric one.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You do not kno what the "chase" is. Those rabbis wrote the script only to be fouled up by later "church" elders, confusing their metaphors for the literal.

Like blaming the Jews for actually "killing Christ" Compounded by idiots like Martin Luther.

The "rabbis" who wrote the themes of the fable knew many of the same things as the esoteric mystics in all religions do. Before they were named "rabbi", they went by other names. The esoteric center initiates and introduces various manifestations of what we call "religion"

Usually the "energy" that draws the Exoteric, or the rest of outer humanity, only lasts a certain amount of time. It does not mean the inner truths common to all of these religions lose their value, but rather the ability to transform the outer Exoteric cultures runs out of steam. Real rabbis, priests and teachers, speak the same esoteric language.

Allegory, metaphor and symbol are devices in that lanquage.

In common usage, esoteric means the inner or more advanced aspect of a spiritual teaching. Exoteric means the outer form of a teaching, one that is shown to the public.

The outer circle of exterior men corresponds to the default state of man – of people not engaged in esoteric work. In this circle it is rare that any two individuals should precisely understand each other on any matter of consequence or complexity. All see the world through thick lenses of subjectivity and are subject to the confusion of tongues alluded to in the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel.

The exoteric circle is the outermost circle of interior or consciously working man. The four Ways lead from the outer circle into the exoteric one.

Oh...so the "smart" rabbis of old wrote the Gospel script? They wrote a script that was totally offensive and blasphemous to them? What purpose would such a script serve?

You are more shot than I even imagined! Why would anyone write such a gospel script?

Don't forget: Many if not most Jews believed in a Messiah to come -- just not Jesus as he presented himself to be.

And please, please, please -- by any and all means possible -- present the solid proof that those smart, ancient rabbis wrote a gospel or passion "script". Where are the ancient manuscripts to such a script? There are literally (not figuratively!) thousands of copies of NT manuscripts. Do we have so much as one copy of a manuscript for the rabbis' script?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Now you can see why Hcap's theory of the Passion of Christ is nothing less than mere allegory (fake news) defies all reason because it's begging to be asked how all those "smart" rabbis of Jesus' day could have allowed some "rag-tag, unlearned, ignorant" Jesus sect get so out of control that they were able to spread their gospel all over the Roman empire (and eventually well beyond that, as well), most especially when when to Jews' ears that that gospel message would have been found to be blasphemous and extremely offensive to them.

Aren't you the one claiming the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus (and thus bringing you your much anticipated salvation)? If that's not trying to strike back and control the rag-tag ignorants, I don't know what is...they killed their leader (according to you), did they not?

That's a pretty harsh and swift reaction, wouldn't you agree?

How many ways do you want this argument? Both ways? All ways?

I don't know why people (including myself), keep indulging your constant "baffle them with bullshit" agenda.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Aren't you the one claiming the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus (and thus bringing you your much anticipated salvation)? If that's not trying to strike back and control the rag-tag ignorants, I don't know what is...they killed their leader (according to you), did they not?

That's a pretty harsh and swift reaction, wouldn't you agree?

How many ways do you want this argument? Both ways? All ways?

I don't know why people (including myself), keep indulging your constant "baffle them with bullshit" agenda.

Yeah...I agree. That was pretty harsh and swift reaction. They reacted to Jesus and his ministry in accordance with their sinful human nature. Quite natural.

And what else is quite natural is that since all the passion events surrounding Christ's death, burial and resurrection actually occurred, this logically and easily explains the spread of Christianity throughout the entire world. The Jews were powerless to fight against God! They could not stop the spread of the gospel and the growth of the church.

Conversely, if the gospel/passion of Christ is nothing but fictional allegory, as Hcap has alleged, then the Jewish religious establishment must have done nothing to stop their fictional story from being represented as fact by a bunch of ignorant, rag-tag Christ sect "literalists". In other words, those "smart" Jewish rabbis just allowed this Jesus sect to co-opt and bastardize their passion allegory, which wound up biting the Jewish religious establishment in very hurtful way! Brilliant move, huh?

I mean...let's face it: How did that kind of utterly stupid complacency tactic work out for the Jews? For nearly 2,000 years they are still known as the Christ killers. And virtually all Old Covenant Judaism has fallen victim also to the Church Militant's gospel message.

Finally, I only need this argument to go one way -- the only scriptural and logical way.

[PaceAdvantage]

Must suck to know one of the biggest Christian religions on earth is best known these days as a safe house for pedophiles.

I know, I know. You completely discount the RCC and always have, but still, it's not a good look, even for other denominations. I'm surprised you're not on here claiming it's all BS and a tool used by the devil to stain all Christians.

Religion has killed a ton of people in this world through the ages. And for what exactly? I guess it kept folks in line, with the whole "fear of God" thing...the whole "be good and get into heaven" thing.

But really, what purpose has it really served? Lots and lots of death...wars...hatred...and now we discover, a haven for pedophiles...who even when found out, get protection from some of the very most higher ups in the Church.

JESUS CHRIST, what a shit show religion has been revealed to be...

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Must suck to know one of the biggest Christian religions on earth is best known these days as a safe house for pedophiles.

I know, I know. You completely discount the RCC and always have, but still, it's not a good look, even for other denominations. I'm surprised you're not on here claiming it's all BS and a tool used by the devil to stain all Christians.

Religion has killed a ton of people in this world through the ages. And for what exactly? I guess it kept folks in line, with the whole "fear of God" thing...the whole "be good and get into heaven" thing.

But really, what purpose has it really served? Lots and lots of death...wars...hatred...and now we discover, a haven for pedophiles...who even when found out, get protection from some of the very most higher ups in the Church.

JESUS CHRIST, what a shit show religion has been revealed to be...

Do non sequitur responses much? But I suppose in your little universe, non-answers beat genuine, on-topic replies.

[Nutz and Boltz]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Must suck to know one of the biggest Christian religions on earth is best known these days as a safe house for pedophiles.

I know, I know. You completely discount the RCC and always have, but still, it's not a good look, even for other denominations. I'm surprised you're not on here claiming it's all BS and a tool used by the devil to stain all Christians.

But really, what purpose has it really served? Lots and lots of death...wars...hatred...and now we discover, a haven for pedophiles...who even when found out, get protection from some of the very most higher ups in the Church.

JESUS CHRIST, what a shit show religion has been revealed to be...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...ligious_groups

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Nutz and Boltz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...ligious_groups

I did say RELIGION was a shit show...I did not confine it to Christians or Catholocism specifically...

Although Judaism is probably one of the few, if not only, well known religions without the LONG history of death, destruction, inquisitions and wars "in the name of" next to their name. So they have that going for them...compared to say Christians and Muslims.