Religion II

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

How is your pocket book under assault?

I pay taxes. Those taxes are supposed to pay for secular activities. (Are you familiar with the Lemon Test?). When the School Board meets they make decisions that effect how tax monies are spent. Proselytizing does not pass the Lemon Test.

Originally Posted by boxcar

And has any Christian threatened you with loss of limb or life?

Did you read the link? Is it not enough to see someone else assaulted?

Originally Posted by boxcar

Finally, how long have you had this persecution complex?

See post #8 in the Religion I thread. Why do you think I came up with that "bullshit answer"? What do you think would have happened to me if I had answered "I don't know. You are supposed to tell me."? According to one of your posts I should have been "slapped silly." So, going back to your previous question, I have not been threatened with loss of life and limb, but I have been belatedly threatened with violence, by you. Your posts demonstrate that Christians are not peaceful. Were I Giordano Bruno you would enthusiastically light the fire.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

I pay taxes. Those taxes are supposed to pay for secular activities. (Are you familiar with the Lemon Test?). When the School Board meets they make decisions that effect how tax monies are spent. Proselytizing does not pass the Lemon Test.

Do you have any proof that money has been spent on proselytizing? If so, on what specifically?

Did you read the link? Is it not enough to see someone else assaulted?

Christians are being killed every day all over the world. Take a deep breath. Chill out.

See post #8 in the Religion I thread. Why do you think I came up with that "bullshit answer"? What do you think would have happened to me if I had answered "I don't know. You are supposed to tell me."? According to one of your posts I should have been "slapped silly." So, going back to your previous question, I have not been threatened with loss of life and limb, but I have been belatedly threatened with violence, by you. Your posts demonstrate that Christians are not peaceful. Were I Giordano Bruno you would enthusiastically light the fire.

What "bs" answer would that have been?

Have you sought professional help?

Which posts of mine demonstrate that I'm not peaceful, even though I am a gun owner?

Have I ever threatened you personally with loss of limb or life offline, online or off this website?

Try to get some sleep tonight. If you want, I can dig around for some plans for a safe room for you. There might even be a real bargain out there that can double as an outhouse in a pinch, if you ever feel the need to bury your head in something.

Night, night.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Do you have any proof that money has been spent on proselytizing? If so, on what specifically?

The court has decided the issue. Live with it.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

D

Which posts of mine demonstrate that I'm not peaceful, even though I am a gun owner?

A gun-toting "born-again" Christian? Is gun-ownership in the scripture? Is that what you got out of Jesus's command to "turn the other cheek"?

[dnlgfnk]

Reign of Terror, anyone?

"Imagine, with John Lennon, a world with no religion"...--Dawkins, The God Delusion

"Well, I'd rather see you dead, little girl
Than to be with another man"...(Lennon, "Run For Your Life")

"Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live . . . . There is, in fact, no talking to some people. . . . We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas."...Sam Harris, The End of Faith


Quite sure that Nietzsche would have found Dawkins and Lennon foolishly naive.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

The court has decided the issue. Live with it.

I'm not the one who has issues with Christians or Christians' roles in the public square. You are! And you're the one who raised the issue of public money, not me. But yet you can't answer a simple question.

But hey....enjoy your paranoid life.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

A gun-toting "born-again" Christian? Is gun-ownership in the scripture? Is that what you got out of Jesus's command to "turn the other cheek"?

Another one with a reading problem. Where did I say I tote guns around with me?

But plenty of Christians own guns (which is what I said!). There is nothing in scripture that forbids owning or toting any kind of weapon -- not even Mat 5:39 to which you alluded. If Christians are prohibited from carrying weapons, then no Christian could be a law enforcement officer.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

Reign of Terror, anyone?

"Imagine, with John Lennon, a world with no religion"...--Dawkins, The God Delusion

"Well, I'd rather see you dead, little girl
Than to be with another man"...(Lennon, "Run For Your Life")

"Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live . . . . There is, in fact, no talking to some people. . . . We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas."...Sam Harris, The End of Faith


Quite sure that Nietzsche would have found Dawkins and Lennon foolishly naive.

But not Actor! He'd be all in!

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Another one with a reading problem. Where did I say I tote guns around with me?

But plenty of Christians own guns (which is what I said!). There is nothing in scripture that forbids owning or toting any kind of weapon -- not even Mat 5:39 to which you alluded. If Christians are prohibited from carrying weapons, then no Christian could be a law enforcement officer.

But...what about Jesus's commandment to "turn the other cheek"? Has this been amended in today's violent age?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I'm not the one who has issues with Christians or Christians' roles in the public square.

Those issues have been addressed by the courts and decided in our favor. So far, so good.

Originally Posted by boxcar

And you're the one who raised the issue of public money, not me.

I'm fairly certain that issue was raised by the FFRF attorneys. It's also been addressed in other court cases, notably in Lemon v. Kurtzman. I was just trying to explain that to you.


Are you familiar with the Lemon Test which arose out of Lemon v. Kurtzman?

[boxcar]

Recently, I commented briefly about the three advantages that Adam enjoyed over Christ. Since virtually everyone here has very short memories (oftentimes selectively), I'll recap those three advantages and then expand on them.

1. Adam came into the world as a mature adult, having sufficient knowledge that was necessary for him to sustain and grow his life both physically and spiritually in this world. Jesus, conversely, had to learn and acquire knowledge from the day he was born.

2. Adam came into a perfect, pristine sinless world; whereas, Jesus came into a world of [spiritual] darkness and despair and misery and suffering and pain and sorrow and death, all due to sin.

3. Adam came into this world also with the full knowledge, realization and consciousness that he was merely a created being; but Jesus came into o the world no doubt realizing and knowing at a young age that he was indeed the only begotten Son of God through whom his Father created the entire universe; yet, even with this knowledge Jesus chose to submit himself entirely to Father's will and trust Him implicitly at all times.

So, let's begin briefly with each point in order.

1. This following NT passage applies equally to Adam back in the Garden as it does today to born again Christians. Remember: Adam was born from above when God breathed life (his Spirit) into Adam, and he became a living soul. Before Adam sinned he was alive unto God; but after he sinned, he died (spiritually). Therefore, Adam before he sinned and born again Christians today both partook of the Holy Spirit. This is exactly how the passage applies to Adam also.

2 Peter 1:3
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
NASB

The passage even goes on to say how God's granting of "life and godliness" through true knowledge of Him make born again Christians today, "partakers of the divine nature". Adam, too, partook of that same nature and had a true knowledge of God. And Adam had all this from the first moment of his existence. And I'm not suggesting here that Adam came into this world as an omniscient being. That's not what I'm saying; for that would contradict my third premise.

2. This second premise was a huge advantage that Adam had over Jesus. Jesus came into a very broken world, very much unlike Adam. So much so that Jesus had to overcome come this world.

John 16:33
33 "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
NASB

The Greek term "kosmos" translated "world" is used in different ways in scripture, with context determining its proper usage. Sometimes it can simply mean "inhabitants". But in this verse, that usage doesn't make sense. Jesus didn't come into the world to overcome people. But one of his purposes for coming into this world was to overcome its order, its system, its ways, its thinking, its philosophies. Because all the inhabitants of this world are broken spiritually and morally, our way, our system, our order for doing things and for thinking are equally broken. So...what Jesus is saying is that he has overcome the sinful world order. Obviously, Adam was never faced with this problem -- until after he sinned, of course. Also, this is the primary reason Jesus taught that his kingdom is not of this world order. He did not come to reign as King over a world filled with sinners. His reign is over His Father's saints in the Kingdom of God in this age.

3. My third premise might be the biggest one of all. While, we learned from the doctrine of the "kenosis" that Jesus "emptied" himself or surrendered his attributes and divine prerogatives during his first advent, we also know from all the NT that Jesus was fully aware -- fully conscious of who he was -- of his own divine nature. But as Phil 2:7 says, "he did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped"! He gave up all his divine prerogatives to become exactly like his brethren (fellow Jews) -- to live a fully human life.

This stands in sharp contrast to Adam; for Adam knew he was a created being -- created from the dust of the earth! This is precisely why the "serpent" had to tempt Eve to "become like God". Satan's temptation was to deceive Eve into thinking that she could become something that was impossible to become!

Gen 3:4
4 And the serpent said to the woman, "You surely shall not die! 5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
NASB

In 7322 I pointed out that Adam was tempted once, indirectly by Satan in the Garden, whereas it explicitly teaches in the NT that Christ was tempted three times the wilderness. But what is often overlooked, I think, by many if not most theologians is that Christ's temptations never ended during his first advent until his death and bodily resurrection. Since Jesus always had true knowledge of his own identity, how often must he have been tempted to use his divine powers or prerogatives during his earthly ministry in his constant, every day dealings with his own evil generation to which His Father sent Him? (Yes, this is what Jesus called his generation -- EVIL!). I can't begin to fathom the unlimited depth to the patience (just to name one virtue!) Jesus had to exercise every single day of his life. But how could Jesus actually do this, not relying on his own divine powers? Answer: The Holy Spirit. One of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is patience (Gal 5:22). This is how Jesus always did the Father's will -- how he always submitted to his Father. In other words, Jesus never ceased for a second to be anything other than a humble, obedient servant to his Father by the power and leading of the Holy Spirit.

Neither Adam or Eve had to ever face this kind of 24/7 temptation in the Garden! But Jesus did when he came into this dark, broken, sin-filled world.

So, while our resident Buddhist lover tells us that "Adam was no Jesus" and its ridiculous to compare Adam to Christ, nonetheless, this kind of worldly, carnal reasoning runs counter to what the bible teaches. Adam did not come into this world with any handicaps, but Jesus certainly did! All Adam had to do was just say "no" and/or believe and quote God's words in Gen 2:17 to Eve and/or the serpent. As stated above, God withheld nothing from Adam. He gave him everything pertaining to life and godliness. Given all these disadvantages of Jesus that I have laid out and supported with scripture, and given the doctrine of the Kenosis, and as counter-intuitive as this may sound at first blush, I believe it's very safe and appropriate to say: Jesus was no Adam!. Yet, unlike Adam, Jesus did overcome because he always trusted his Father during his first advent.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

I pay taxes. Those taxes are supposed to pay for secular activities. (Are you familiar with the Lemon Test?). When the School Board meets they make decisions that effect how tax monies are spent. Proselytizing does not pass the Lemon Test.

Since you are trying to take this thread into a Constitutional bent, let me ask you the following question.

Knowing school boards impose taxes, do you have a problem with local municipalities giving non-citizens the right to vote on local issues, including electing school board members? Do you have a problem with a non-citizen, possibly someone who is not legally in this country, is voting for board members who will increase your taxes, to the benefit non-citizens?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

But...what about Jesus's commandment to "turn the other cheek"? Has this been amended in today's violent age?

No, it hasn't been amended? But what should be amended is your hermeneutical system of interpretation that employs eisegesis. As explained once upon a time to you, Light (our resident pacifist) and others, you guys read far too much into the text. The passage isn't even talking about physical abuse to begin with!

What you may also want to work on simultaneously is expanding your knowledge of the Word of God. Given the logic that you seem to be using for Mat 5:39, I could also ask you: What about the 6th Commandment: "Thou shall not murder."?

Again...couple this commandment with Mat 5:39, and you have an airtight case that prohibits Christians from entering into any law enforcement work, right?
Yet.....Yet....at the same time, God instituted human government (that doesn't bear the sword for nothing) and capital punishment. Hmm.. You might wanna give all this some thought.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Since you are trying to take this thread into a Constitutional bent, let me ask you the following question.

Knowing school boards impose taxes ...

They don't. At least not where I live. Taxes are imposed by legislative bodies or by ballot issue. I expect that to be the case nation wide.

[boxcar]

The Lord brought a passage to mind that refutes the above nonsense.

First of all, Pain does not = Sin. Pain and sin are two very different things. As I tried to explain to Light, Sin is the cause of pain. Part of God's three-fold curse in the Garden was the introduction of pain to Eve after she sinned.

Furthermore, now that we know that Jesus was sinless, took on the form of a humble servant to serve his Father in all ways at all times, and laid aside or surrendered his divine prerogatives (save for his eternalness which is impossible to surrender), the following passage takes on a whole new meaning, in light of the above mentioned truths, with respect to what is necessary and what isn't for spiritual growth/enlightenment.

Luke 2:41-52
41 And His parents used to go to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. 42 And when He became twelve, they went up there according to the custom of the Feast; 43 and as they were returning, after spending the full number of days, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. And His parents were unaware of it, 44 but supposed Him to be in the caravan, and went a day's journey; and they began looking for Him among their relatives and acquaintances. 45 And when they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem, looking for Him. 46 And it came about that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them, and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers. 48 And when they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You." 49 And He said to them, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?" 50 And they did not understand the statement which He had made to them. 51 And He went down with them, and came to Nazareth; and He continued in SUBJECTION to them; and His mother treasured all these things in her heart.

52 And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
NASB

A few of things: We see in this passage how the "kenosis" actually worked in Jesus every day life, even as a youngster! By subjecting himself to his parents' will, he also was subjecting himself to God's will -- or more specifically to the 5th commandment in the Law of Moses.

Next, we also see from the practical outworking of the kenosis by Jesus being in his Father's house -- the temple in Jerusalem. I have no doubt at all that the Holy Spirit led Jesus there, which is why he wasn't with his parents in the first place. What was he doing in the temple? He was doing his Father's business! He was ministering already to people at the tender age of 12!

Finally, we can see that Jesus' sinless life did not prohibit or even inhibit his spiritual growth! As I have repeatedly said in the last few days, Jesus, unlike Adam, had to grow spiritually. And as he grew spiritually, he grew in favor with God and men. But Jesus did NOT need the effects of sin (pain) to grow as Light keeps insisting that the rest of mankind needs. This particular passage provides us with positive proof of this truth in addition to the hundreds of passages in the canon of scripture that condemn sin outright.