Religion II

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The games had the blessings of all the Caesars, ...

And of the Christian church. Look it up.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And only an idiot would base an argument on what he doesn't know.

You do it all the time.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Well, there you go. This explains your love for the religion of Scientism. You and many others cannot discern between reality and science fiction. And I'm absolutely sure of that.

You clearly do not understand science. I think it's time for me to start charging you tuition for explaining it to you. I await your check.

$50 per post. I'm giving you my children's rate.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

You do it all the time.

Of course, I don't.

You clearly do not understand science. I think it's time for me to start charging you tuition for explaining it to you. I await your check.

$50 per post. I'm giving you my children's rate.

I understand enough to know that the Star Trek series was spawned out of someone's fanciful imagination. And that is more than you know.

That's very sweet of you of to give me such a good rate. I'll take you up on it if I can get 0% interest for 5 years. Plus I need the first 10 lessons to be BOGOs. Plus I want all your lessons to be peer-reviewed.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

And of the Christian church. Look it up.

You're the one making the claim. Prove it.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And my last to post to you was lengthy in that it addressed many points -- most of which you have not bothered to acknowledge now either -- such as the infinite superiority of Christ over your Buddha guy.



This is no problem because I don't base beliefs on any one version, including my favorite ones. My biblical hermeneutical system is far broader than any one version of scripture.



Jesus didn't think words were meaningless. He quoted very often from the OT scriptures and said that man lives by every word that proceeds from God's mouth.



Sin is real. The Law of Sin (Rom 7:23,25)is precisely why Jesus came into the world. He came to bear the sins of his Father's people in his own body.


Of course darkness exists. Light and Darkness exist simultaneously. One can be in total darkness because he cannot see the light. Can a blind man see the light of day? He cannot but that doesn't mean the light isn't there. Have you ever been deep inside a deep cave with no light? You cannot even see your hand in front of your face due to the black blackness. but the light is bright outside the cave. Listen to how Paul describes the former spiritual condition of the Ephesians:


Note very carefully that Paul didn't tell the Ephesians that there were formerly "in" the darkness -- but they were darkness itself.

All born again Christians have been delivered from the devil's kingdom of darkness:


The Prince of Darkness has blinded the minds of all unbelievers so that they cannot see the light.


You see...the light is there but unbelievers have been blinded to it by the Evil One, so that they cannot "see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ..."

So you ask, "Well then how can anyone be saved? How can anyone be saved to see the light and to come to it?" As I stated in my last post, Salvation is entirely of God. God is the one who saves by his mighty power. His power alone breaks the Law of Sin and Death! The passage above continues on to say:


Paul is making an analogy here between the Creation account and God's decree of light to shine in a dark world in the beginning, and God, who himself is Light, sovereignly choosing to shine in the dark hearts of his people "to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."



I do not pass judgment on you; for your own words condemn you. You just stated above that you don't need a savior. Also, the Word of God stands in judgment of you now and at the end of the age for all people.


You see how you have condemned yourself -- counted yourself unworthy of God's great salvation? You don't need saving. You don't believe you must be saved.

Neither do you believe that you need to repent of your sins because sin is not a reality to you. But scripture says:



I do know what Jesus said. You receive the sayings of Buddha long before the sayings of Christ. You have no fear of Him who can cast body and soul into hell -- per Jesus!


Do you know that all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus Christ by the Father (Mat 28:18)? Do you know who the Judge will be on the last day when judgment is passed on the righteous and the wicked? When your "best friend" repeats himself, you should pay special attention.

Your entire post is a lie. All you do is twist what people say into different meanings than the original to prop yourself up. It's so obvious it's funny.

I'll address just one particular lie you said because it hits home. You said:

Originally Posted by boxcar

You don't believe you must be saved.

You say that after I just told you Jesus is my best friend,makes me cry because he loves me so much which I see from his help and wisdom in my everyday life and you have the nerve to post that. Are you insane? One cannot be closer to another than that.

I couldn't be more saved because Jesus resides in my heart because I welcomed him and God there. Being "saved" does not mean my struggles are over. I still have to deal with my own ego and everyday challenges but in line with Christ and God's love, not my Ego. That's what it means to be saved. It does not mean you punch your imaginary Egoic ticket to an imaginary Egoic Heaven.

In Heaven you don't have ego, that's why its called Heaven. But you still have to spiritually evolve there or here. That never ends until you become completely enlightened.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

That's very sweet of you of to give me such a good rate. I'll take you up on it if I can get 0% interest for 5 years. ...

If you think I would do this on credit you are sadly mistaken. Cash on the barrelhead.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

If you think I would do this on credit you are sadly mistaken. Cash on the barrelhead.

Cash for trash? Seriously?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Your entire post is a lie. All you do is twist what people say into different meanings than the original to prop yourself up. It's so obvious it's funny.

I'll address just one particular lie you said because it hits home. You said:


You say that after I just told you Jesus is my best friend,makes me cry because he loves me so much which I see from his help and wisdom in my everyday life and you have the nerve to post that. Are you insane? One cannot be closer to another than that.

I couldn't be more saved because Jesus resides in my heart because I welcomed him and God there. Being "saved" does not mean my struggles are over. I still have to deal with my own ego and everyday challenges but in line with Christ and God's love, not my Ego. That's what it means to be saved. It does not mean you punch your imaginary Egoic ticket to an imaginary Egoic Heaven.

In Heaven you don't have ego, that's why its called Heaven. But you still have to spiritually evolve there or here. That never ends until you become completely enlightened.

But how can you be saved when Jesus didn't atone for your personal sins? How can you be saved when Jesus never redeemed you from the slave market of sin? How can you be saved when Jesus never became a propitiation for your personal sins, since you don't believe in God's wrath? How can you be saved when Jesus never reconciled you back to God by forgiving your sins? How can you be saved when in your heart of hearts you don't believe sin is a big deal to God? How can you be saved when you think you were born perfect and you're still perfect? How can you be saved from the penalty of sin when there is no punishment for sin? How can you be saved from the power of sin when sin is only pain? How can you be saved from the presence of sin when God is going to allow the worst sinners who ever lived to enter into heaven? How can you be saved when you have nothing from which to be saved? How can you be saved when you are so enlightened and were never lost? How can you be saved from sin when you think Jesus merely died a martyr's death, a death that had nothing to do with sin? How can you be saved when you believe the Buddha's teachings far more readily and to a much greater extent than you believe Jesus' gospel message?

A lot of people claim that Jesus is their "best friend" but on the last day, he will tell very many of them:

Matt 7:23
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'
NASB

In other words, they practiced sin! They lived in sin -- all the while professing to be his disciples!

And finally, how you can be saved when you don't have the first clue on what Jesus' mission, life, ministry and work here on earth was all about?

Jesus is is the Federal Head of the Church that the Father has given to Him. He is the Head and its members are his body. Since Jesus (the Last Adam) succeeded where the First Adam failed in every possible respect -- since He kept God's law perfectly, lived a sinless life, always obeyed His Father perfectly, He was the only one who was qualified to go to the Cross to pay for the sins of His Father's Church. The Just died for the Unjust bearing their sins in his body on that cursed Tree! He became their Substitute. Therefore, for all those for whom Christ died -- for all those who are IN Christ -- they participate in his perfect holiness and righteousness, positionally and practically, here on earth but NOT perfectly in the latter sense; but in heaven, when the saints have their glorified, PERFECT bodies just like Jesus' resurrected body, all sin and death will be abolished because there will be no more sinful nature. And without a sinful nature, there can be no sin. And in a place without sin, there can only be holiness and righteousness. This is the saint's great inheritance in Christ in heaven -- to be conformed perfectly to His image and be free from all sin for all eternity.

Your real and first love for Buddhism has so oriented your mind to a works-based, merit-based system of living with the goal of pleasing whatever force or higher power you think exists "out there", that you cannot relate one iota to a grace-based only salvation -- a salvation that Christ alone earned for God's people. Your mind cannot conceive that God's saints here on earth, upon their death, actually have an inheritance waiting for them in heaven and that that particular inheritance actually belongs to the Son of God which the Father has, nonetheless, ordained in eternity past that the saints get to share in with Jesus Christ His only Begotten Son. What Christ has in Heaven, the saints will have in heaven! In fact, because Jesus conquered sin and death in this age, the saints in heaven get to share in that victory with their King for all eternity.

So...when you insist that spiritual evolution continues to take place in your version of the afterlife, you're unwittingly saying that Christ himself must evolve with us -- that Jesus isn't and never was perfectly holy and righteous. If the saints have to evolve spiritually, then so must Christ because the saint's are IN Him by virtue of the Holy Spirit. The saints are inextricably united to Christ, which is precisely why the Church is called His Body. What happens to the saints must happen to Jesus. You make Jesus out to be nothing less than a common man and sinner like all his saints. It's no wonder you think he died as a mere martyr!

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But how can you be saved when Jesus didn't atone for your personal sins? How can you be saved when Jesus never redeemed you from the slave market of sin? How can you be saved when Jesus never became a propitiation for your personal sins, since you don't believe in God's wrath? How can you be saved when Jesus never reconciled you back to God by forgiving your sins? How can you be saved when in your heart of hearts you don't believe sin is a big deal to God? How can you be saved when you think you were born perfect and you're still perfect? How can you be saved from the penalty of sin when there is no punishment for sin? How can you be saved from the power of sin when sin is only pain? How can you be saved from the presence of sin when God is going to allow the worst sinners who ever lived to enter into heaven? How can you be saved when you have nothing from which to be saved? How can you be saved when you are so enlightened and were never lost? How can you be saved from sin when you think Jesus merely died a martyr's death, a death that had nothing to do with sin? How can you be saved when you believe the Buddha's teachings far more readily and to a much greater extent than you believe Jesus' gospel message?

The answer to all your "How can you be saved" questions above is: Divine Love.

There is a saying "I searched for myself and found God. I searched for God and found myself" I started searching for myself at 14 yo. I am now 63 and found God, within.

Consider this. We were given this life. By who? God. Do you own it? Not really. Proof is you don't get to choose when to leave or how you will leave this life. Also consider your spiritual heart. Is it yours? We automatically assume it is. But we were also given it. By who? God.

Therefore when you look in your heart, you will find God because he is the original owner of it. We are only the caretakers. When you find God in your heart then you will be saved.

All those rites and rituals you quote to be saved are unnecessary. Because they will all eventually lead to your heart anyway. If they don't lead to your heart, they are useless.

Originally Posted by boxcar

A lot of people claim that Jesus is their "best friend" but on the last day, he will tell very many of them:

Matt 7:23
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'
NASB

In other words, they practiced sin! They lived in sin -- all the while professing to be his disciples!

Yes, if you caused pain to another, you "sinned" against them so to speak. "Sin" being from the Greek "Missed the mark". But if you have God in your heart and live by God's love, you will not cause sin. I can only be the latter when I am conscious of Jesus/ God within me guiding me with their love which they do and why I say Jesus is my best friend in my everyday life. I consult with him when I have an issue and just about always Jesus tells me to come from the love in my heart when dealing with an issue.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Your real and first love for Buddhism has so oriented your mind

I don't understand your aversion to Buddhism. Buddha was a spiritual teacher just as Jesus is. He says the same things as Jesus in a different way. Since I was raised Catholic Jesus is the Deity I was raised with. But nothing in Buddha's teaching conflict with the teachings of Christ. In fact Buddha's teaching actually support the teachings of Christ. If you studied Buddhism you would know that.

Originally Posted by boxcar

So...when you insist that spiritual evolution continues to take place in your version of the afterlife, you're unwittingly saying that Christ himself must evolve with us -- that Jesus isn't and never was perfectly holy and righteous.

You keep playing this game of incoherence. That's not what I said about reincarnation. The purpose of reincarnation is to become enlightened, not to endlessly and mindlessly keep reincarnating. It is for our souls to evolve.

I previously gave you the example of Buddha becoming enlightened after 500 lifetimes and most people taking about 3,500 lifetimes.

So just to clarify for you, after Buddha reached enlightenment with his 500th lifetime he did not need to reincarnate anymore. He had reached Nirvana.

Likewise Christ like Buddha has been released from the effects of karma and the cycle of death and rebirth and is a totally enlightened being. Totally enlightened beings do not need to reincarnate to learn anymore lessons. They "know" everything. They have "God consciousness" which is the highest form of consciousness.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

The answer to all your "How can you be saved" questions above is: Divine Love.

There is a saying "I searched for myself and found God. I searched for God and found myself" I started searching for myself at 14 yo. I am now 63 and found God, within.

Consider this. We were given this life. By who? God. Do you own it? Not really. Proof is you don't get to choose when to leave or how you will leave this life. Also consider your spiritual heart. Is it yours? We automatically assume it is. But we were also given it. By who? God.

Therefore when you look in your heart, you will find God because he is the original owner of it. We are only the caretakers. When you find God in your heart then you will be saved.

All those rites and rituals you quote to be saved are unnecessary. Because they will all eventually lead to your heart anyway. If they don't lead to your heart, they are useless.

Yes, if you caused pain to another, you "sinned" against them so to speak. "Sin" being from the Greek "Missed the mark". But if you have God in your heart and live by God's love, you will not cause sin. I can only be the latter when I am conscious of Jesus/ God within me guiding me with their love which they do and why I say Jesus is my best friend in my everyday life. I consult with him when I have an issue and just about always Jesus tells me to come from the love in my heart when dealing with an issue.

I don't understand your aversion to Buddhism. Buddha was a spiritual teacher just as Jesus is. He says the same things as Jesus in a different way. Since I was raised Catholic Jesus is the Deity I was raised with. But nothing in Buddha's teaching conflict with the teachings of Christ. In fact Buddha's teaching actually support the teachings of Christ. If you studied Buddhism you would know that.

You keep playing this game of incoherence. That's not what I said about reincarnation. The purpose of reincarnation is to become enlightened, not to endlessly and mindlessly keep reincarnating. It is for our souls to evolve.

I previously gave you the example of Buddha becoming enlightened after 500 lifetimes and most people taking about 3,500 lifetimes.

So just to clarify for you, after Buddha reached enlightenment with his 500th lifetime he did not need to reincarnate anymore. He had reached Nirvana.

Likewise Christ like Buddha has been released from the effects of karma and the cycle of death and rebirth and is a totally enlightened being. Totally enlightened beings do not need to reincarnate to learn anymore lessons. They "know" everything. They have "God consciousness" which is the highest form of consciousness.

Here's the bottom line to your version of salvation:

1. Us finding God is not in scripture. Also, Faith and Repentance are the requirements for salvation, not love. Jesus never taught, "Love
God and thou shalt be saved."

2. And moreover, it's not because it's antithetical to what scripture teaches about the condition of man's heart. All men are natural born enemies of God, hence, we have the aspects of soteriology called Reconciliation and Propitiation.

Your view of salvation, therefore, is totally backwards. No man finds God (in his heart or anywhere else) because no man naturally wants to find him. It's God who finds sinners. Have you never read what your "best friend" Jesus said:

Luke 19:10
10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
NASB

Jesus does the seeking and the saving, not you or any other sinner.

And then there is this companion passage stated negatively:

Rom 3:11
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
NASB

Buddha thought he had numerous lifetimes to get it right, but I tell you the truth YOU have only ONE per your "best friend" who inspired the writer of Hebrews to write this passage:

Heb 9:27
27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
NASB

Whatever you think Buddhism and Christianity have in common, at the very best it's less than superficial. The bible: one General Resurrection after death at which time the unrighteous will be judged; Buddhism: as many chances via reincarnations as it takes. Buddhism and Christianity conflict in every major tenet of their teachings.

Buddha's goal was to treat the mere symptoms of sin. e.g. help people to alleviate their suffering. Christ's mission was to deal with the very cause of suffering and death which is Sin by saving sinners from its penalty, it's power and ultimately its presence.

Buddha is not divine. Christ is divine. You don't understand my aversion to Buddhism? It's very simple. Tell me, should I bring the Son of God the Lord and Savior of many sinners down to the level of mere sinful Buddha, or should I exalt your beloved and sinful Buddha up the the very glory of Christ that he had before the world even existed?

And what rites or rituals did I quote to be saved? Name them! I quoted or cited the fundamental doctrines of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There are only two rituals in biblical Christianity: Water Baptism and the Lord's Supper -- neither of these topics have I broached with you.

And then you tell us that Buddha says the same things as Jesus, but in different ways!? If this were true, then why do you disagree with virtually everything I have posted about biblical Christianity? You're so self-deceived, you don't realize that you just talked out of both sides of your mouth.

But hey...be of good cheer. You'll get to meet your real best friend Buddha upon death in a place where there is lots of pain and suffering and misery that is necessary to help you grow. Your unwavering faith in Buddha and his teaching will be amply rewarded. You'll have an awful long time to discuss Buddhism with your best friend and how he got it all so very wrong. (This is assuming he ever existed, which a lot of people doubt by the way. Man...that would be a real bummer wouldn't it, if you don't get to meet him in the enlightenment center in the House of Pain, and discover you believed in a myth all this time here on earth?)

[thaskalos]

How many thousands of posts have we submitted in the two editions of this thread...without being able to make any progress at all in our discussion? We are exactly at the same point from which we started...with the only difference being that we are all 6 years and 9 months older now than we were then.

[boxcar]

I have consistently maintained over the course of all these years posting here that Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it to be in this world!) harmonizes perfectly with Divine Revelation (the bible). And this post with deal with another such pair of revelations have to do with a biblical principle which Paul called the Law of Sin -- this principle itself being [b]absolute truth[/i].

What I will do in this post is establish that this universal principle is taught in scripture, that the is principle is the very reason God made a covenant of Law with the ancient Hebrews in the wilderness after He redeemed them from the slavery of Pharaoh in Egypt and, finally, that the laws of all the nations in the world affirm the existence of this universal principle, which in turn makes this Law of Sin absolutely true. So, without further ado, let's jump into the deep end of the pool.

1. The Law of Sin

Paul wrote to the church in Rome:

Rom 7:23-25
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
NASB

We learn a few things from this short passage. We learn that the apostle struggled with this universal principle. He waged war between the Law of God and the Law of INDWELLING sin. On one hand, he served the Law of God, while other with his "flesh" (sinful nature) the law of sin. in fact, all Romans 7 basically deals with these two laws and Paul's personal spiritual experience with them both.

2. The Inextricable Connection Between Sin and the Law of God

We saw very recently in the exchanges between Light and myself that sin is defined in the bible as "lawlessness". By definition, one who is lawless is a lawbreaker or a transgressor of God's law.

1 John 3:4
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
NASB

All sin is actually a "criminal" act against God and his holy law. All sin is first and foremost against God and is infinitely offensive to him, which is why the Father and the Son both hate sin.

This connection between sin and law is made unmistakably clear again by Paul when he told Timothy -- but in this passage, also, Paul takes it even further by teaching that the Law of God was made specifically for sinners of all stripes:

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
NASB

Again, the Law of Moses was not made for a righteous man but for lawless men!

Also, don't miss the very important nuance dealing with "law" in v.9. In the v.8 Paul talked about "the Law" is good...". The Law being the Law of Moses. But then in the next verse subtlety shifts gears talking about "law". Some Christian commentators believe the switch is referring to the universal principle of law in the broadest sense possible. Others say that Paul is still referring to God's Law -- but is also inclusive of the pre-Mosaic period of human history, such as the laws of God that Abraham obeyed (Gen 26:5). I personally lean toward this latter understanding because of all the judgments God brought upon the world prior to the Law of Moses, e.g. the Flood, the Tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah and Egypt. But at the same time, we mustn't forget that God instituted human government (and by implication governments' judicial processes) immediately after the Flood. So, it's possible both interpretations could be correct because they are not mutually exclusive to one another. But I digress...let's move on and continue to build the case for the reason for God's Law.

3. The Central Reason Behind the Covenant Law of Moses

The Galatian Church had a real problem. There were Judaizers in the church telling Gentile believers that they had to keep the Law of Moses and get circumcised. One of Paul's arguments against this legalism in the church was that they were heirs of the promises God made to Abraham, and that the Law of Moses, which came 430 years after the Abrahamic Covenant (Gal 3:17), does not invalidate all the promises of this covenant. Then Paul went on to tell the Galatians why exactly God gave the Law to the ancient Hebrews in the Wilderness.

Gal 3:18-19
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.
NASB

The Covenant of Law, then, was added to the Abrahamic Promises 430 years afterward because of sin - i.e. transgressions -- because of lawlessness. In fact, NT writers have done a condensed historical review of the Jews' sinful ways during their sojourn in the wilderness. And it was in the context of their obstinate, stubborn rebellions (plural!) against God that the Covenant Law of Moses was instituted by him. The writer of Hebrews briefly describes the Jews' wilderness experience and tells us that they sinned!

Heb 3:15-19
15 while it is said,

"Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me."

16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
NASB

Did you catch the nuance in this passage, as well!? First, the writer tells us that the Jews provoked God (to his face, as it were), and they did this by sinning against him by being disobedient. But then in v.19, he concludes that they were not able to enter into God's rest (i.e. the Promised Land) because of unbelief? Because of a lack of faith!? Because of a lack of trust? Was the writer confused? What angered God? What provoked Him? Their sinful acts, their disobedient behavior or their lack of faith? What's going on here? Confused? Don't be. Scripture is self-interpreting.

Rom 14:23b
23 ...and whatever is not from faith is sin.
NASB

And,

Heb 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
NASB

The writer of Hebrews was not confused. Ultimately, it was the ancient Hebrews' lack of faith, lack of trust that condemned them in the wilderness. Unbelief leads to disobedience. Unbelief IS Sin! Conversely, the gift of faith by God leads to a righteous standing, forensically, and to faithfulness, obedience practically. There is one more important passage dealing with this topic, then I'll end this post and pick it up again in another post. In this next passage, Paul recounts many of the specific sins of the Hebrews in the wilderness.

1 Cor 10:1-11
1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. 6 Now these things happened as examples for us, that we should not crave evil things, as they also craved. 7 And do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, " The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play." 8 Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10 Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
NASB

Let's do a quick review, then, of how of how the above passages define sin. Sin is lawlessness. Sin is rebellion against God. Sin is transgression of God's law. Sin is provocation to God. Sin is disobedience to God. Sin is unbelief, (not believing and trusting God).. And sin can only elicit God's displeasure and wrath. Is sin, then, "missing the mark"? Yes! And it misses the mark in all the above ways. Is sin to be taken lightly or with dismission? I most definitely would not recommend that kind of attitude.

In the next post, we'll take up the laws of the nations and how those laws affirm the universal Law of Sin.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

How many thousands of posts have we submitted in the two editions of this thread...without being able to make any progress at all in our discussion? We are exactly at the same point from which we started...with the only difference being that we are all 6 years and 9 months older now than we were then.

I have grown spiritually by the grace of God. I have also become more enlightened, thanks to the illuminating work of the Holy Spirit who has been indispensable in helping me to write numerous series. I'm not "exactly at the same point from which we started".

And methinks the original Religious thread is older than 7 years of so. Or maybe time just flies when I'm having fun.

[boxcar]

I'd like to tie up a couple of loose ends before moving on the subject matter of this particular post. The very first thing I wish to clarify about God's Law is that no one can be saved by keeping it, since the requirement is nothing less than perfect adherence to it all the time.

James 2:10-11
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not commit murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
NASB

And,

Gal 3:10
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.
NASB

In addition to this, the perfect, holy, righteous good Law of God is weak through man's sinful nature. Therefore, God's holy law can actually bring out the worst in people!

Rom 8:3
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh [sinful nature], God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
NASB

Moreover, there is nothing good in man's sinful nature that would enable him to keep the law perfectly.

Rom 8:6-8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
NASB

The upshot to these passages (and others, as well) is that sinners cannot keep God's law perfectly. Only one man was able to accomplish this feat: And that was the Son of Man -- The Sinless Lamb of God. Jesus kept God's law perfectly all the time, which qualified Him to offer himself up as the atoning sacrifice to God for His chosen people.

One may be wondering, then, "Why the Law"? Why? Why did God give mankind an impossible standard to meet? There are several reasons. We belabored the first point in my last post -- the Law as added because of man's transgressions and to bind all men up in sin (Gal 3:19-22). The Law also shows all men the utter futility of law-keeping (see the three passages above). It was given to make all men acutely aware of the law of sin within them -- it gives all men fuller knowledge of sin (Rom 3:20). And it is through this deeper knowledge and conviction of sin that comes by the Law that one is shown how utterly sinful he is (Rom 7:13). The Law was given to show that it is pure spiritual truth (Rom 7:14). The Law also reveals, by our sinful thoughts, words and deeds, that evil inherently indwells each and every one of us (Rom 7:17,21). The Law also reveals that sin indwells all of us (Rom 7:20). So, then, the flip side to the Law was that it was also given as a "tutor" to lead men to Christ, since man cannot save himself because he's powerless to change his sinful nature from which all sin flows (Gal 3:24).

But in addition to all the "horizontal" reasons stated above, there is a "vertical" reason as well: The Law is an expression of God's holiness, righteousness and goodness (Rom 7:12). The Law fully reveals God's holy and righteous character as does the Cross of Christ. (The Law and the Cross are also inextricably linked but that would be a topic for another time.) Now onto the main point of this post, which is to ask the question: How does the Law of Sin universally manifest itself in this world, making this principle, too, absolute truth?

The first thing we need to understand, though, is that this particular universal principle finds its ground in the Law of Distrust. These two universal principles are also inseparably linked. And here's why: The Law of Sin finds its manifold expression through all the laws of the nations of this world; for the universal presumption of all governments is that man cannot be trusted to control, regulate or restrain his own personal, individual behavior, making necessary the various laws of the nations. Another universal presumption is that all men are lawless to one degree or another. Is there any one of us who can say with a straight face (other than Light who very likely thinks he's still perfect since birth) that we have never broken any laws instituted by our governments? This is a serious question.

Is there is anyone out there who is 100% squeaky clean of any infraction of any of our laws? Do you ever speed? Do you ever tailgate? Do you ever change lanes in an intersection? Do you ever make illegal turns when you think no cop is around? Do you text while you drive? Do you talk on your cell that is not hands-free? Do you ever jaywalk? Do you ever light up a cancer stick somewhere you're not supposed to? Have you ever littered in a public place? Have you ever cheated on your tax return -- even a tiny little bit? Have you ever lied (even a "white" on) on any kind of official application or paperwork when it was explicitly forbidden under the penalty of law? Have you ever shoplifted when times were hard or maybe for kicks when you were a kid, just to see if you could get away with it? Have you ever loitered in a public place when it was explicitly forbidden? Ditto for trespassing? Have you ever violated any boating laws? Have you ever sneaked into some event without paying?, etc., etc.? These "small", seemingly insignificant infractions of law are just the tip of the iceberg. The list is almost endless. And I have gotten to any of the serious "criminal" activity. The obvious point to this little survey is that, if we're totally honest, none of us is 100% guiltless of lawlessness. And that is the entire point to the Law of Sin: The Law of Sin makes Law necessary in Divine and Natural Revelation.

The clear inference from the bible is that since God ordained many men to be saved from the penalty, power and, ultimately, from the presence of sin, His Law to mankind was a necessary and extremely important aspect to that salvation. As we have seen briefly, his Law served several good and important purposes. Likewise, the Laws of the Nations of this world are absolutely necessary (albeit for different reasons) for at least two reasons: A) All governing authorities presume men cannot be trusted to govern, control and regulate their own personal behavior among other men, and B) all ruling authorities in this world presume that all men are lawless to one degree or another. Therefore, between the Law of Sin and the Law of Distrust, the only logical conclusion we can make is that this world is very broken (beyond human repair according to scripture). And because both laws find their basis in the eternal Word of God and are universal in scope in this world, they are are absolutely true.

Never let anyone try to deceive you by telling you there is no such thing as absolute truth.

[thaskalos]

We may all be sinners, Boxcar...but I doubt that we'll be judged with the same severity as the Hitlers of the world when we cross over to the other side. We may not be able to reside in the elite neighborhood of heaven that YOU are destined for...but I am betting that we are also not evil enough to be tortured for all eternity. Hopefully...we will be relegated to the ghetto-side of the heavenly kingdom...where all we'll have to worry about is the occasional stray bullet crashing through our window, as we are trying to have our meager supper. After living 40 years in Chicago...I think I can manage that.