Religion III

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

This about fighting the Devil not other human armies. Nor is the "subtle" enemy hidden. All of your examples are pretty much the same or have zero to do with earthly battles. Nothing wrong with those lessons when not taken literally, but a different set of themes

And I pointed this out to you recently! Are you totally senile? Did I not say last week that the OT narratives that depict actual historic events, places and people, etc. very often serve as types that point to ultimate, eternal, spiritual realities that are revealed more fully in the NT? Why do you think Ephesians 6 exhorts believers to put on battle armor -- the full armor of God!? And the spiritual forces that Christians battle today are as real as the wars and battles in the OT. And those OT wars and battles still provide valuable spiritual instruction today to Christians, especially in terms of how God works.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The internet is a vast space...and it contains every sort of "proof" a man could want. If you want to "debunk the Horus myth"...the information is out there. And if you want to "debunk the Jesus myth"...that information is out there as well. It's all rather silly, IMO...and it doesn't amount to a "hill of beans". We believe what we believe...and, we are the only ones who could change our own minds. And, even if we DO change our mind...it's very difficult to "live out" that change in a practical sense.

No matter how many millions of words we spew...we do so while fully knowing that we haven't changed even a single person's mind. And that's man's greatest folly...IMO. That's why the wisest men of old valued silence as much as they did. Few things in life are as empty as the words that we speak...which usually starkly contradict our actions.

Nonsense! The message of the bible is unique! So much so, that I have never heard of, read of or seen any Horus disciple going around preaching his version of the gospel.

And, no, we are not the only ones who can change our our minds, most especially when it comes to the Gospel. Read John 3 someday. Unless one is born from above, he will never change his mind!

[hcap]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The internet is a vast space...and it contains every sort of "proof" a man could want. If you want to "debunk the Horus myth"...the information is out there. And if you want to "debunk the Jesus myth"...that information is out there as well. It's all rather silly, IMO...and it doesn't amount to a "hill of beans". We believe what we believe...and, we are the only ones who could change our own minds. And, even if we DO change our mind...it's very difficult to "live out" that change in a practical sense.

No matter how many millions of words we spew...we do so while fully knowing that we haven't changed even a single person's mind. And that's man's greatest folly...IMO. That's why the wisest men of old valued silence as much as they did. Few things in life are as empty as the words that we speak...which usually starkly contradict our actions.

Absolutely. But in spite of their drawbacks, words may be used precisely in almost all endeavors. Religion and Politics are the sticking points.

However. history and archaeology have value. As does requiring verification of speculation on the way the universe works.

Problem among true believer religious types, is rigidity of thought. And quite a bit of knee-jerking at the mere mention of other ways. There are many brilliant religious people I have personally met. They tend to keep their minds open and are insightful.

Neither I, nor boxcar can prove our respective points of views, but limiting our information of everything around us, and narrowing philosophical horizons do tend to matter. You are correct there is much junk on the internet, but all is not equal.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And I pointed this out to you recently! Are you totally senile? Did I not say last week that the OT narratives that depict actual historic events, places and people, etc. very often serve as types that point to ultimate, eternal, spiritual realities that are revealed more fully in the NT? Why do you think Ephesians 6 exhorts believers to put on battle armor -- the full armor of God!? And the spiritual forces that Christians battle today are as real as the wars and battles in the OT. And those OT wars and battles still provide valuable spiritual instruction today to Christians, especially in terms of how God works.

And we have told you the events you claim the bible depicts, those places and people, etc, never ever happened!!!

Are you totally senile?
What don't you get about facts Shirley?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by hcap

Absolutely. But in spite of their drawbacks, words may be used precisely in almost all endeavors. Religion and Politics are the sticking points.

However. history and archaeology have value. As does requiring verification of speculation on the way the universe works.

Problem among true believer religious types, is rigidity of thought. And quite a bit of knee-jerking at the mere mention of other ways. There are many brilliant religious people I have personally met. They tend to keep their minds open and are insightful.

Neither I, nor boxcar can prove our respective points of views, but limiting our information of everything around us, and narrowing philosophical horizons do tend to matter. You are correct there is much junk on the internet, but all is not equal.

Let me make my point a little more clear...because I wasn't alluding to the "junk on the internet". I was talking about our OPINIONS about it.

My previous post submitted a short while ago elicited replies from both Boxcar and you. "Nonsense!"...was Boxcar's first word in reply...whereas your first reply word was "Absolutely". My post was what it was...and yet the two of you had totally different reactions to it. That's what happens in ALL aspects of life...IMO. The world goes on, the way it must go...but our reactions to the world's events vary greatly...according to our own upbringing and our individual life experiences. Boxcar believes what he believes...and nothing that you or I can do or say will make even a tiny bit of difference to him. And the same applies to the comments that Boxcar directs at us. And all of us already KNOW that! So...why do we continue bickering here...to the extent where we eventually develop really negative feelings about one-another? We must like to read our own writings...because we know damned well that this doesn't do anybody ELSE any good. I am sitting here forming negative opinions about Boxcar which appear concrete in my mind...and I don't even KNOW the man! And he probably feels the same about me! "What is the point of all this?"...I keep asking myself. And, for the life of me...I can't come up with a reasonable answer. Am I so proud of my religious opinions that I want to keep repeating them over, and over, and over again here...even though I know that I'm not changing anyone's mind? What do I really know about "religion" that hasn't been taught to me by someone else...and...how sure can I be that what I was taught was the "right thing"? And...even if it is the "right thing", for me...how presumptuous must I be to assume that it must also be the "right thing", for someone else?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Let me make my point a little more clear...because I wasn't alluding to the "junk on the internet". I was talking about our OPINIONS about it.

My previous post submitted a short while ago elicited replies from both Boxcar and you. "Nonsense!"...was Boxcar's first word in reply...whereas your first reply word was "Absolutely". My post was what it was...and yet the two of you had totally different reactions to it. That's what happens in ALL aspects of life...IMO. The world goes on, the way it must go...but our reactions to the world's events vary greatly...according to our own upbringing and our individual life experiences. Boxcar believes what he believes...and nothing that you or I can do or say will make even a tiny bit of difference to him. And the same applies to the comments that Boxcar directs at us. And all of us already KNOW that! So...why do we continue bickering here...to the extent where we eventually develop really negative feelings about one-another? We must like to read our own writings...because we know damned well that this doesn't do anybody ELSE any good. I am sitting here forming negative opinions about Boxcar which appear concrete in my mind...and I don't even KNOW the man! And he probably feels the same about me! "What is the point of all this?"...I keep asking myself. And, for the life of me...I can't come up with a reasonable answer. Am I so proud of my religious opinions that I want to keep repeating them over, and over, and over again here...even though I know that I'm not changing anyone's mind? What do I really know about "religion" that hasn't been taught to me by someone else...and...how sure can I be that what I was taught was the "right thing"? And...even if it is the "right thing", for me...how presumptuous must I be to assume that it must also be the "right thing", for someone else?

You need to be taught spiritual truth by God Almighty. Unless that happens, you will die in your sins and pay your own sin debt. And if you think that's possible -- or that you can do something in this life to win favor with God, be assured that no one can! NO ONE!. No one, of course, save for God's own Firstborn!

Ps 49:7-9
No man can redeem the life of another
or give to God a ransom for him —
8 the ransom for a life is costly ,
no payment is ever enough —
9 that he should live on forever
and not see decay.
NIV

The difference between my negative "nonsense" to your post and Hcap's affirmative "absolutely" is that the source of truth is different. God doesn't think or act the way we mere mortals do anymore than we think and act like some irrational animal. When I disagree, it's because God's Word does. And when Hcap agrees with you, he's mimicking this fallen world's collective wisdom. Therein is the difference in a nutshell.

And I make no apology for conforming my thinking to God's! God's people are supposed to do this very thing.

Rom 12:2
2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is — his good, pleasing and perfect will.
NIV

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You need to be taught spiritual truth by God Almighty. Unless that happens, you will die in your sins and pay your own sin debt. And if you think that's possible -- or that you can do something in this life to win favor with God, be assured that no one can! NO ONE!. No one, of course, save for God's own Firstborn!

Ps 49:7-9
No man can redeem the life of another
or give to God a ransom for him —
8 the ransom for a life is costly ,
no payment is ever enough —
9 that he should live on forever
and not see decay.
NIV

The difference between my negative "nonsense" to your post and Hcap's affirmative "absolutely" is that the source of truth is different. God doesn't think or act the way we mere mortals do anymore than we think and act like some irrational animal. When I disagree, it's because God's Word does. And when Hcap agrees with you, he's mimicking this fallen world's collective wisdom. Therein is the difference in a nutshell.

And I make no apology for conforming my thinking to God's! God's people are supposed to do this very thing.

Rom 12:2
2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is — his good, pleasing and perfect will.
NIV

Here's the "Truth"...as I see it. You are as ignorant as any one of us when it comes to religion...your arrogance just doesn't allow you to admit your own ignorance. All that you know you've picked up from someone else...and, if you were born in some other country...you would just as obnoxiously be singing a different religious tune.

I didn't ask you to "apologize" for your religious beliefs...and I also haven't ever asked you for any religious "guidance". Save your sermons for those who need them.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

http://apologetics-notes.comereason....esus-myth.html

Simple-minded is as simple-minded does.

Just a little comment here. Not trying to make any point.

One line in your link says "As I've explained before, Jesus's actual birth is not known, and celebrating Christmas on December 25 has nothing to do with the winter solstice whatsoever." Actually, Christmas does have something to do with the solstice.

Christmas originally coincided with the Roman holiday of Saturnalia. The two holidays share some traditions, e.g., gift giving. The early church set the date of Christmas to coincide with Saturnalia to give Christians an alternative to Saturnalia. Saturnalia may or may not have included activities (orgies?) which the church disapproved of.

Christmas/Saturnalia may have originally coincided with the solstice. Holidays in pre-Gregorian calendars tended to drift, mostly due to ignorance of the exact length of a year. The Babylonians thought that the year was exactly 360 days long. The pre-Julian Roman calendar did not include January and February because people would shelter in place and wait for the spring thaw.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Here's the "Truth"...as I see it. You are as ignorant as any one of us when it comes to religion...your arrogance just doesn't allow you to admit your own ignorance. All that you know you've picked up from someone else...and, if you were born in some other country...you would just as obnoxiously be singing a different religious tune.

I didn't ask you to "apologize" for your religious beliefs...and I also haven't ever asked you for any religious "guidance". Save your sermons for those who need them.

The same old tired saw: Misery loves company.

What doesn't allow me to admit any ignorance is that I have the Spirit of Christ living in me, plus I have God's Word. I know I'm on solid ground because God's Word is diametrically opposed to the wisdom of the world. Therefore, I know I'm traveling on the narrow road that leads to life, while the world at large is obliviously trucking along the wide path that leads to destruction.

Matt 7:13-14
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction , and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
NIV

I wish you the best on your journey...

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Just a little comment here. Not trying to make any point.

One line in your link says "As I've explained before, Jesus's actual birth is not known, and celebrating Christmas on December 25 has nothing to do with the winter solstice whatsoever." Actually, Christmas does have something to do with the solstice.

Christmas originally coincided with the Roman holiday of Saturnalia. The two holidays share some traditions, e.g., gift giving. The early church set the date of Christmas to coincide with Saturnalia to give Christians an alternative to Saturnalia. Saturnalia may or may not have included activities (orgies?) which the church disapproved of.

Christmas/Saturnalia may have originally coincided with the solstice. Holidays in pre-Gregorian calendars tended to drift, mostly due to ignorance of the exact length of a year. The Babylonians thought that the year was exactly 360 days long. The pre-Julian Roman calendar did not include January and February because people would shelter in place and wait for the spring thaw.

I'll add the Christmas tradition to my studies projects list, although it will take it's place behind a long line of more important topics.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Let me make my point a little more clear...because I wasn't alluding to the "junk on the internet". I was talking about our OPINIONS about it.

My previous post submitted a short while ago elicited replies from both Boxcar and you. "Nonsense!"...was Boxcar's first word in reply...whereas your first reply word was "Absolutely". My post was what it was...and yet the two of you had totally different reactions to it. That's what happens in ALL aspects of life...IMO. The world goes on, the way it must go...but our reactions to the world's events vary greatly...according to our own upbringing and our individual life experiences. Boxcar believes what he believes...and nothing that you or I can do or say will make even a tiny bit of difference to him. And the same applies to the comments that Boxcar directs at us. And all of us already KNOW that! So...why do we continue bickering here...to the extent where we eventually develop really negative feelings about one-another? We must like to read our own writings...because we know damned well that this doesn't do anybody ELSE any good. I am sitting here forming negative opinions about Boxcar which appear concrete in my mind...and I don't even KNOW the man! And he probably feels the same about me! "What is the point of all this?"...I keep asking myself. And, for the life of me...I can't come up with a reasonable answer. Am I so proud of my religious opinions that I want to keep repeating them over, and over, and over again here...even though I know that I'm not changing anyone's mind? What do I really know about "religion" that hasn't been taught to me by someone else...and...how sure can I be that what I was taught was the "right thing"? And...even if it is the "right thing", for me...how presumptuous must I be to assume that it must also be the "right thing", for someone else?

I do think we affect others. No, not boxcar, but other posters in the past have corresponded with me asking about my sources and specific opinions regarding comments I have made.

I also find in the process of formulating responses to others, it may generate further reflection sometimes deepening my own questions and partially understood concepts.

Years ago I used to own a Japanese wood print of a solitary monk intensely sewing his garment. His gaze was focused on the very point the taut thread was yanking on and exiting the cloth. The tension on the mending thread, and "one pointed attention" of the monk's gaze, was striking. At the time I was 100% sure the Japanese artist was conveying solely what I felt. Quite effective and meaningful.

As the years passed I studied Sufism after giving away that wood print.

Came across the "Prophet and faithful Muslims wore garments of wool to denote their detachment from the world and simplicity in living."
The original meaning of sufi seems to have been "one who wears wool (ṣūf)",
I discovered it was an important theme to mend one's own woolen robes Sufis took great joy and solace in doing it to the best they could. The concept of caring for their garments symbolized the repair of torn and fragmented "selves" we present to the world. In a sense mending our disjointed habitual surface personalities, we often believe we are.

So my earlier friend, the solitary Japanese monk sewing his robe, appeared to have much in common with people across the globe in Persia. It's good to make those type of connections, and every once and a while relating different stories to others they get sewn together for myself.

You may be right 95% of this thread is ego against ego.
So is life.

[Light]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Let me make my point a little more clear...because I wasn't alluding to the "junk on the internet". I was talking about our OPINIONS about it.

My previous post submitted a short while ago elicited replies from both Boxcar and you. "Nonsense!"...was Boxcar's first word in reply...whereas your first reply word was "Absolutely". My post was what it was...and yet the two of you had totally different reactions to it. That's what happens in ALL aspects of life...IMO. The world goes on, the way it must go...but our reactions to the world's events vary greatly...according to our own upbringing and our individual life experiences. Boxcar believes what he believes...and nothing that you or I can do or say will make even a tiny bit of difference to him. And the same applies to the comments that Boxcar directs at us. And all of us already KNOW that! So...why do we continue bickering here...to the extent where we eventually develop really negative feelings about one-another? We must like to read our own writings...because we know damned well that this doesn't do anybody ELSE any good. I am sitting here forming negative opinions about Boxcar which appear concrete in my mind...and I don't even KNOW the man! And he probably feels the same about me! "What is the point of all this?"...I keep asking myself. And, for the life of me...I can't come up with a reasonable answer. Am I so proud of my religious opinions that I want to keep repeating them over, and over, and over again here...even though I know that I'm not changing anyone's mind? What do I really know about "religion" that hasn't been taught to me by someone else...and...how sure can I be that what I was taught was the "right thing"? And...even if it is the "right thing", for me...how presumptuous must I be to assume that it must also be the "right thing", for someone else?

The answer to what you posed here was given to me a couple of weeks ago in meditation. The voice said "Reality is what you want".

That makes sense to me. We create our reality according to what we want,consciously and/or subconsciously.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Light

The answer to what you posed here was given to me a couple of weeks ago in meditation. The voice said "Reality is what you want".

That makes sense to me. We create our reality according to what we want,consciously and/or subconsciously.

That makes sense to me too.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Light

The answer to what you posed here was given to me a couple of weeks ago in meditation. The voice said "Reality is what you want".

That makes sense to me. We create our reality according to what we want,consciously and/or subconsciously.

Try creating a simple structure ignoring the nature of the materials, and or what efforts and hard work required to successfully have that structure function in the real world. It has been my experience anyone who gets proficient at almost anything, touches "Tathātā" to some extent.

Yes, we create our own realities only too often. The rub is those inner realities must connect up on what the "suchness" or Tathātā of things, the underlying realness, or our best laid plans fall apart built on a lousy foundation.

I view meditation as a temporary reprieve from spending too much time and energy creating elaborate alternatives to Tathātā

A direct experience of reality without our inevitable filters.

"If you wish to practice the way of the Buddhas … you should expect nothing, seek nothing. Cut off the mind that seeks and do not cherish a desire to gain the fruits of Buddhahood” .
...Dōgen Zenji, founder of the Sōtō school of Zen

[hcap]

When I began searching after realizing how bleak things may look, as to what is "the truth", a few things came to my rescue.

This song lyric, originally based on a Buddhist saying:

"First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is."


Then this.........

The Master Game.. Robert S. de Ropp
https://selfdefinition.org/gurdjieff...aster-Game.pdf

I. Games and Aims. A Game Worth playing.THIS BOOK is CONCERNED with games and aims.

It has been stated by Thomas Szasz that what people really need and demand from life is not wealth, comfort or esteem but games worth playing.

1. He who cannot find a game worth playing is apt to fall prey to accidie, defined by the Fathers of the Church as one of the Deadly Sins, but nowregarded as a symptom of sickness. Accidie is a paralysis of the will, a failure of the appetite, a condition of generalized boredom, total disenchantment -- "God, oh God, how weary, stale, flat and unprofitable seem to me all the uses of this world!" Such a state of mind, Szasz tells us, is a prelude to what is loosely called "mental illness," which, though Szasz defines this illness as a myth,nevertheless fills half the beds in hospitals and makes multitudes of people a burden to themselves and to society.

Seek, above all, for a game worth playing. Such is the advice of the oracle to modern man. Having found the game, play it with intensity -- play as if your life and sanity depended on it. (They do depend on it.)