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Old 03-15-2019, 11:26 PM   #10186
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I agree, 'cap.

If you want to expand Actor's hermeneutics beyond the fundamentalist level, it could only be progress.

That's not a personal gibe at Actor, just a fact. There's a saying, perhaps only in my circles. "Scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist". Most people don't find it worth their time investigating something they reject outright.
Sorry. my background is engineering and practical fabrication of of all sorts of devices including prototypes. Hermeneutics is not required interpreting trig tables or understanding compound angles. Actor's approach is reasonable and should be understood in a factual, non-hermeneutic way.

"Scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist" sounds clever, but might be a false equivalency. Actor presents observed facts. Does not reject observable facts.

Also, I think he has defined himself as agnostic.

Whereas box...................
?
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:24 AM   #10187
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Please explain the difference between logical and chronological time, since you seem to understand it.

Or do you?.

Makes no sense to me
By "logical" I'm assuming Boxcar to mean "metaphysical"-the aspects of reality that are not captured by quantifying them.

It would be incoherent to say that "11:00 P.M. on March 16th, 2019 precedes 11:00 P.M. on March 15th, 2019.

I understand Boxcar to be stating that since "Tomorrow becomes Today (Tomorrow undergoing the changing, actively proceeding backwards), ergo the future precedes the past" captures metaphysical reality.

It seems to me if he were metaphysically consistent, in his scheme "Tomorrow" has the potential to become "Today". Potentials can only become actualized by something else already actual. So "Today" is actual, i.e., the efficient cause of tomorrow, therefore precedes tomorrow, congruent with chronological time.

I think it's bad metaphysics, for reasons I mentioned responding to his post to me. I've accumulated many significant sources/references in metaphysics, and I've never seen this, but maybe I missed something.
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:44 AM   #10188
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Sorry. my background is engineering and practical fabrication of of all sorts of devices including prototypes. Hermeneutics is not required interpreting trig tables or understanding compound angles. Actor's approach is reasonable and should be understood in a factual, non-hermeneutic way.

"Scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist" sounds clever, but might be a false equivalency. Actor presents observed facts. Does not reject observable facts.

Also, I think he has defined himself as agnostic.

Whereas box...................
?
"Hermeneutic" in the sense of, "How one approaches the text".

To approach the text through the lens of 21st century science is still to possess a hermeneutic method of interpretation.

If the author(s) (there are a few creation accounts in the Hebrew scriptures, with different theological aims) intended to respond to contemporary mythopoeic narratives of Israel's neighbors, with a similar genre but containing self-understood theological truths in order to contrast the polytheists, the modern reader's focus on the science would be to miss the point.
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:25 AM   #10189
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That's not a personal gibe at Actor, just a fact. There's a saying, perhaps only in my circles. "Scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist". Most people don't find it worth their time investigating something they reject outright.
What circles?
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Old 03-16-2019, 04:00 AM   #10190
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There's a saying, perhaps only in my circles. "Scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist".
Does this saying also apply in reverse? As in "scratch a fundamentalist, find an atheist"?
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Old 03-16-2019, 08:26 AM   #10191
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By "logical" I'm assuming Boxcar to mean "metaphysical"-the aspects of reality that are not captured by quantifying them.

It would be incoherent to say that "11:00 P.M. on March 16th, 2019 precedes 11:00 P.M. on March 15th, 2019.

I understand Boxcar to be stating that since "Tomorrow becomes Today (Tomorrow undergoing the changing, actively proceeding backwards), ergo the future precedes the past" captures metaphysical reality.

It seems to me if he were metaphysically consistent, in his scheme "Tomorrow" has the potential to become "Today". Potentials can only become actualized by something else already actual. So "Today" is actual, i.e., the efficient cause of tomorrow, therefore precedes tomorrow, congruent with chronological time.

I think it's bad metaphysics, for reasons I mentioned responding to his post to me. I've accumulated many significant sources/references in metaphysics, and I've never seen this, but maybe I missed something.
It may be an attempt to discuss the metaphysics of time, but there is no logical reason to have the "metaphysical" OPPOSE the "practical". I find truth in most cases to use all "aspects" in coordination. If you want to rail against scientism, the sometimes convenient diving up of reality into separate factions may be the problem. Your adage of scratching an atheist to uncover a fundamentalist, may be apropos. Literal minded fundamentalism divides a greater set of meanings.

I find it illogical to not quantify time. Modern thought has time as a dimension. A fourth. The 3 spatial dimensions are....

Three-dimensional space (also: 3-space or, rarely, tri-dimensional space) is a geometric setting in which three values (called parameters) are required to determine the position of an element (i.e., point). This is the informal meaning of the term dimension.



In mathematics, analytic geometry (also called Cartesian geometry) describes every point in three-dimensional space by means of three coordinates.
.................................................. ..........................
Yes we can limit our discussion to "aspects", but it is a an example of thinking that only describes a frame of reference without the fuller understanding of what where is about. Of course we can talk about the relationship of the separate dimensions, i.e, they are at right angles to each other, but it is not logical or illogical to omit vital information, and as I said, but there is no logical reason to have the "metaphysical" OPPOSES the "practical". In fact they should be additive to our understanding not subtractive.

Logical versus chronological is a major stretch. Once the details of this stretch, are scrutinized, the devil in the midst of those details traps boxcar's theory.

At some point I will tell you a story about trying for years to design a perpetual motion machine. Of course I was well aware of the underlying principles ruling out any possibility of success, but I would propose thought experiments of all sorts of mechanical "Kludges", and tracking down how exactly one cannot evade the laws of the universe in detail and in all sorts of creative and varying arrangements, is quite enlightening and enhanced my understanding of mechanics

I guess the "devil in the details" is more than just a religious pearl
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:39 AM   #10192
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In all threads here, the usual tactic by those on opposite sides, is to make a case (logical opr illogical) for their views. Perfectly normal. The rhetoric does become heated. However I only recall one bet as a result of heated words. And it was not a complicated wager.

Bid Mack bet one presidential candidate wining against someone else' other candidate (don't remember who) and lost. A simple yes/no outcome not in question. Big Mack took his medicine like a man, as fae as we know, and quit the board like a stand up guy.

Why do you not support your weird contention in a straightforward way, and prove to us you are not a coward or even worse, a liar? A bet in this case can and should be clearly stated without layers of twisted interpretations and skullduggery and distraction. And more importantly, a bet is not needed for you to make your case. Although you were the one proposing it. Loaded with arbitrary conditions

Why play silly childish games? I would have thought you would be eager to prove you case, and prove I and the rest of the world wrong?
Why are so impatient? Don't you know: I'm keeping you on the hook to torture you? And it's working like a charm! Why don't you frantically wiggle up another tantrum for us?
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:51 AM   #10193
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Originally Posted by dnlgfnk View Post
By "logical" I'm assuming Boxcar to mean "metaphysical"-the aspects of reality that are not captured by quantifying them.

It would be incoherent to say that "11:00 P.M. on March 16th, 2019 precedes 11:00 P.M. on March 15th, 2019.

I understand Boxcar to be stating that since "Tomorrow becomes Today (Tomorrow undergoing the changing, actively proceeding backwards), ergo the future precedes the past" captures metaphysical reality.

It seems to me if he were metaphysically consistent, in his scheme "Tomorrow" has the potential to become "Today". Potentials can only become actualized by something else already actual. So "Today" is actual, i.e., the efficient cause of tomorrow, therefore precedes tomorrow, congruent with chronological time.

I think it's bad metaphysics, for reasons I mentioned responding to his post to me. I've accumulated many significant sources/references in metaphysics, and I've never seen this, but maybe I missed something.
However, it does not follow logically that Today causes Tomorrow! For who can say with certainty that there will be a Tomorrow after Today? It is not necessary that Tomorrow follow Today; for it isn't necessary in the first place for there to be a Tomorrow. However, if there be any Yesterdays, it is logically necessary that they follow our Todays. Today has the potential to be become Yesterday just as Tomorrow has the potential to become Today. But by the same token, it is not necessary either that there be a Tomorrow; for Today could be the end.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:46 AM   #10194
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Why are so impatient? Don't you know: I'm keeping you on the hook to torture you? And it's working like a charm! Why don't you frantically wiggle up another tantrum for us?
You are so eloquent Ralph.

Found the best explanation of your reverse time theory to date.

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Old 03-16-2019, 11:20 AM   #10195
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So we're on board chronologically.

Your support for "Future precedes Past" is, "that our Tomorrows become our Todays (sic) and our Today's become our Yesterdays."

I fail to see how you've done anything more than arbitrarily capture a description of time (Future), which we are advancing towards chronologically (="logical time") by our agreement, and restate it metaphorically. That is, the perception of time as backwards..."Tomorrow becomes today"... standing for the linear, chronological reality. Perhaps it would help if you reveal your source(s), if any?

By what grounds can I not state, "Today becomes tomorrow", since like your conception, it captures reality linguistically, but unlike yours also captures the linear reality?
It's not arbitrary at all! We all intuitively think logically about time, even though we're so chronologically time bound. The only way to trace the flow of Time is by starting with the Present. I repeat: it is the only way -- if no other reason, we cannot trace it from the dead time of the Past or the the yet-to-lived/used time of the Future; for Phenomena only touches our senses in the Present.

We know that one hour from now will become NOW, and we know that one moment from NOW will become the Past. We know, therefore, that the Present is the portal through which all Time flows. The Present is always situated between the Future and Past.

We know that one hour from now is the immediate future that is arriving to meet us. We know that two weeks from now is in the near future. We know that one year from now is in the intermediate future. We know 5 years from now is in the distant future.

Likewise, we know that one hour ago is in the immediate past. We know that 2 weeks ago is in the recent past. We know that a year from now is in the intermediate past. And that five years from now is the distant past, etc.

We intuitively know that we look in one direction for the future and think of the future as laying ahead of us, relentlessly moving to meet us at some point in time. We also know that the Past is behind us and we look in the opposite direction back to it when our minds think upon it. And just as the Future is moving closer and closer to us, the Past is moving farther and farther away each moment, each hour, each day...receding farther and farther into the distant past. And we do all this with our minds in the Present. Our minds look forward or back just as we physically look in the Present toward the East for the new, oncoming day and look in the opposite direction of the West for the aging day's demise. The Material and Immaterial are in sync, aren't they? Intuitive Revelation and Natural Revelation are in perfect harmony --just as we would expect from an infinitely wise God.

Well, what about Divine Revelation? Is this, too, in sync with Natural and Intuitive Revelation? I suspect, Doc, we might part company here. However, you have already conceded that God in eternity has decreed -- has ordained -- not only the number of your days, and my days but the days of all mankind. So, when God created Adam and Eve all their lives lay ahead of them. Adam and Eve had nothing but a Future, as did their entire progeny! All mankind's existence was bound up in the Fountainhead of the Future! Not the Past! The vast storehouse of all God-ordained Time for all mankind is the Future, whereas the Past is the graveyard of all Time.

Look at Time as the "Spring of the Water of Life", to borrow a biblical phrase. When this world passes away and ceases to exist, will it be because the graveyard of the Past became too full -- became so bloated -- so overloaded -- that it could no longer pass through the portal of the Present to become Tomorrow? Or will it be that the world simply ran out of Time -- that the spring of the water of life dried up and there was no more water to sustain life -- no more time to pass through the portal of the Present? Which do you think it will be? If you really believe that God in eternity has ordained all the days of mankind, and all the days that the world has left reside in the Future, then the spring of the water of life must be flowing downstream from the Future to the Present. Life, as we know it, will end when that spring dries up --when all Time ceases to exist. And when Time ceases to exist, the universe, as we know it, will cease to exist!

Finally, when Jesus returns to restore all things, will he be returning from the Past or coming out of the world's Future?
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Old 03-16-2019, 11:28 AM   #10196
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Sorry, forgot to mention your esteemed mentor. I guess your comments on chronological time was the first double oxymoron in existence learned from Prof. Corey's teachings..

Everything now, is perfectly clear Ralph

https://youtu.be/RHlLmYVCzKY?list=RDRHlLmYVCzKY&t=5

Oh my goodness I created a Frankenstein
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Old 03-16-2019, 01:17 PM   #10197
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Sorry, forgot to mention your esteemed mentor. I guess your comments on chronological time was the first double oxymoron in existence learned from Prof. Corey's teachings..

Everything now, is perfectly clear Ralph

https://youtu.be/RHlLmYVCzKY?list=RDRHlLmYVCzKY&t=5

Oh my goodness I created a Frankenstein
Why are babbling so incoherently? Are you off your meds, again?
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:04 PM   #10198
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As I said, forgot to mention your esteemed mentor. I guess your comments on chronological time was the first double oxymoron in existence learned from Prof. Corey's teachings..


Hey Prof. Repeted general circular statements does not constitute evidence.

You said you had "proof" of effect before cause.

Well? Irwin,. or is it Ralph?
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:14 PM   #10199
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As I said, forgot to mention your esteemed mentor. I guess your comments on chronological time was the first double oxymoron in existence learned from Prof. Corey's teachings..

https://youtu.be/RHlLmYVCzKY
The "oxymoron" exists only in the maze of your grey matter.

Now...if you want to say that Time is a paradoxical component of creation because it can be seen from chronological and logical perspectives, then you'd be correct.
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:23 PM   #10200
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Hey Prof. Repeted general circular statements does not constitute evidence.

You said you had "proof" of effect before cause.
Well? Irwin,. or is it Ralph?
Why do you insist on being an insufferable bore.

Here is what I have constantly maintained. I have repeatedly stated that effects can often precede causes in the course of everyday human activities.

Of course, you are so simple-minded and naive, and have your head so deeply buried in a place from where it can never see the light of day, you cannot help to jump to the conclusion that all human activity must be physical in nature. We saw this when you posted all your boring stuff about physics, including a nice little graphic.

So, tell us, Mr. Wanna-be expert on life, the universe and child-rearing, is all human activity strictly physical in nature?
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