Ortiz makes Zero effort to get lead and loses with massive show wagers.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

Not trying to derail the thread, just a simple question:


What % of races do YOU think had a stiff job in them in a given year?

Stiff job being defined as a horse that was on obvious contender and lowish odds, who was made sure to lose because the jock (and others) had wagers against the horse.

Not a trick question.

You know EMD, I know an awful lot about the game within the arena I played in having lived it for so long.

That said, for me to speak about every track in the USA and give an opinion on a % would be a lame attempt at acting like I knew much more than I do.

I do know a lot of what happened years ago, and sadly, it's not all smiles and roses, but it would be reckless of me to give any % other than Maryland racing from 1972 or 3-2000.

It would be an uninformed opinion that would hold no water and it would serve this board unfairly no matter what I said.

Don't mean to duck the question but I try and help people with what I know and I do not know that.

Sorry I can't be of more help on that one.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by Ruffian1

You know EMD, I know an awful lot about the game within the arena I played in having lived it for so long.

That said, for me to speak about every track in the USA and give an opinion on a % would be a lame attempt at acting like I knew much more than I do.

I do know a lot of what happened years ago, and sadly, it's not all smiles and roses, but it would be reckless of me to give any % other than Maryland racing from 1972 or 3-2000.

It would be an uninformed opinion that would hold no water and it would serve this board unfairly no matter what I said.

Don't mean to duck the question but I try and help people with what I know and I do not know that.

Sorry I can't be of more help on that one.

Is it safe to assume that the last "stiff job" you remember physically seeing and knowing for sure that it was, was over 1 year ago? 10 years ago? 20 years ago?

Not a trick question. No answer that I am looking for. Just looking for everyone's thoughts.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pick 5

Not particularly....they happen a lot more than one would think though....you probly have some sort of list or database of these....I more block them out because they piss me off but will remember when I see the horses in the entries again

Great, thank you!

[AltonKelsey]

Originally Posted by EasyGoer89

You don't really need to know much about harness racing, all that is in question is if harness racing fines/suspends drivers for poor judgment or not. I know that they do. Hopefully Pandy can chime in here he would know more about this.

It's actually a lot easier to tell if someone is deliberately not trying at the trots then tb racing. So if someone doesn't pull out when they have a clear opening , they can claim malfeasance.

Half the time you can barely tell if they are going to try till the late stages, which is why I gave up harness long ago.

[SoCalCircuit]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

Not trying to derail the thread, just a simple question:


What % of races do YOU think had a stiff job in them in a given year?

Stiff job being defined as a horse that was on obvious contender and lowish odds, who was made sure to lose because the jock (and others) had wagers against the horse.

Not a trick question.

Watch 80% of last races at Delta where Saenz is on a favorite.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Ruffian1

Absolutely CJ.

That move backfires more than people think.

How could he not know that Ortiz was prone to stupid riding and take off a ride who had proven himself on the horse.
I say Asmussen made a very dumb move. Ortiz still had a lot of learning to do - he is often much dumber than the horse he is allegedly riding.

He is a name rider alright....but not the name he thinks he is.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by Tom

How could he not know that Ortiz was prone to stupid riding and take off a ride who had proven himself on the horse.
I say Asmussen made a very dumb move. Ortiz still had a lot of learning to do - he is often much dumber than the horse he is allegedly riding.

He is a name rider alright....but not the name he thinks he is.

I agree. Even when Irad is trying, he isn't that smart. He can herd and push and bump but when it comes to strategy and riding another horse early or mid race, he is lacking big time.

Big bully in NY, exposed elsewhere.

[no breathalyzer]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

I agree. Even when Irad is trying, he isn't that smart. He can herd and push and bump but when it comes to strategy and riding another horse early or mid race, he is lacking big time.

Big bully in NY, exposed elsewhere.

Sure helps to have the fire power and sharp agent to boot.. Put Maragh Franco Lezcano and especially Alvarado in the same spots and it's more likely they would out preform both the brothers.... They are good jockeys but have a lot to learn and in my opinion

[EasyGoer89]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

It's actually a lot easier to tell if someone is deliberately not trying at the trots then tb racing. So if someone doesn't pull out when they have a clear opening , they can claim malfeasance.

Half the time you can barely tell if they are going to try till the late stages, which is why I gave up harness long ago.

Here's the tricky thing about harness racing with "trying" vs "stiffing" the thing is that in every race there's a horse in the pocket (2nd behind leader) and 1 or 2 horses behind him depending on field size, so most races you're going to have 2or 3 horses who save ground on both (or 4) turns while covered up, so if any of those horses are contenders, they're going to be full of pace coming home and a lot of times, one or 2 of those guys get blocked, to the layman, it appears as if the driver made an error and got himself boxed in (or is stiffing) but in reality, if that horse didnt have such a cushy trip, he wouldn't have had that kind of pace finishing.

[ultracapper]

I will just speak for the maidens and N2L in SoCal for older horses. I have watched every race run under those conditions for the last 6 or 7 years at least 10 times, if not more while 'capping races run under these conditions. I have watched the replays of numerous other conditions while handicapping horses that are in races I'm 'capping. Literally 10s of thousands of replays. I can honestly say I have only once or twice said to myself while watching a replay, "that was a stiff job". But many times I have said "that was a crap ride", or "that was a shit effort".

That's what I think about Ortiz. It was so crappy, it was unacceptable, IMO. And I'd say 95% of the crap was in the first 25 or 30 yards. HE HAD THE LEAD. He just needed to decide to commit to it. That's all. No pussy footing. Just say to yourself before the gate opens, "I have a fast horse here. She does all her best work on the lead. GET THE LEAD". She broke perfectly to get it if he wanted it. He EFFED UP BIG TIME. And the fact somebody, one single horse race gambler, put maybe as much as a quarter million to show on her, makes the ride just scream EF UP.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

Not trying to derail the thread, just a simple question:


What % of races do YOU think had a stiff job in them in a given year?

Stiff job being defined as a horse that was on obvious contender and lowish odds, who was made sure to lose because the jock (and others) had wagers against the horse.

Not a trick question.

Now you know which races have jocks (and others) betting against their own horses...wow man...you really are a God.

And how many times do you think you're wrong? I know you'll say 5% or some stupid number like that. That's why there is no talking to you...I still say it's mostly an act.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by SoCalCircuit

Watch 80% of last races at Delta where Saenz is on a favorite.

So Mr. Pick 5 decided not post the above, but then you decide to post it?

Maybe you guys don't know this, but I can see deleted posts.

It just gets funnier and funnier around here lately.

Maybe that's EMD's goal. To finally turn this place totally into WWE or WWF or whatever the hell they call themselves now.

Not going to happen fellas.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

Is it safe to assume that the last "stiff job" you remember physically seeing and knowing for sure that it was, was over 1 year ago? 10 years ago? 20 years ago?

Not a trick question. No answer that I am looking for. Just looking for everyone's thoughts.

Please do not assume anything I remember physically seeing when it comes to this subject.

I will leave the "stiff job" talk to others.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by Tom

How could he not know that Ortiz was prone to stupid riding and take off a ride who had proven himself on the horse.
I say Asmussen made a very dumb move. Ortiz still had a lot of learning to do - he is often much dumber than the horse he is allegedly riding.

He is a name rider alright....but not the name he thinks he is.

I would agree and he probably would as well at this point.

Sometimes owners ask for a name guy. No clue if that happened.

Another poster said that he and Santana fell out a few weeks ago and Santana was no longer riding anything for him.
When that happens it can hurt both parties .

Seems like it sure did in this case.

[razor]

Originally Posted by Ruffian1

I would agree and he probably would as well at this point.

Sometimes owners ask for a name guy. No clue if that happened.

Another poster said that he and Santana fell out a few weeks ago and Santana was no longer riding anything for him.
When that happens it can hurt both parties .

Seems like it sure did in this case.

I posted that Ruffian and that leads me to ask another question. What exactly is a rider who rides first call for a trainer? Asmussen said Luis Contreras would ride first call for him after he moved his tack from California yet had no mount in the Azeri. If Santana is out then why would he not get the mount? He's ridden just about everything else for him leading up to it and won races so he knows the track granted he doesn't know the horse but either does Irad. Handicapping that race left me with a lot of questions of why who rides what and the thought process that goes into it.