Just what is the Sartin Methodology?

[delayjf]

I also know that using Aqua Velva will not bring scantly clad women rushing to rub my cheeks, but I still use it!

Maybe your not putting it on the right cheeks. Myself, I've had good luck with HI - Karate.

[46zilzal]

I too followed Ray Talbout and it was the basis of my being able to understand Sartin the way I do. I used the old plastic pace calculator with Amer-Var to "break in" to the entire idea. It is such a simple idea that it is hard sometimes to not CONTAMINATE it with other things: trainer moves, jockey switches etc.

[andicap]

If anyone has a copy of Barry Meadow's article on Sartin, I would love to see it....

Thanks.

[Dick Schmidt]

The Sartin Methodology was always a moving target, intentionally so. I watched a lot of it develop and helped with the progress some. Here are some observations and thoughts from a guy who made most of the trip with Doc and the guys.

PACE: no, Sartin didn't invent pace. He got most of his ideas from Mahl, who adapted ideas from Talbot, who was following The Speed Boys, who learned from Matheson, who got ideas from some Englishman who invented the stopwatch. Likely some Roman was trying to time the chariot races using his pulse (lots of luck on that one with a big bet on). Sartin acknowledged his debt to all of those who went before him and was particularly quick to praise Huey Mahl.

EVOLUTION: The first method developed was Phase III. There never was a Phase I or II, Doc wanted people to think he had been in business a while when he started out. By the way, the truck drivers did exist, I met two of them. Both were still out of jail, so I guess some of it took.

Ultra Scan was the next program offered. Developed by Doc to shut up a client who was only interested in long shots, it turned out to be a surprisingly good program. The internal workings are very strange, as it adds a feet-per-second rating and a percentage figure together and divides by two, then multiplies by an arbitrary number I forget to "disguise" the ratings. Doc used to say that this was his most original idea.

Synergism - not officially a part of the Sartin Method, but sold by Doc. Written by Bob Purdy, it was an attempt to produce Phase III numbers with all the necessary adjustments built in. The current version of the program has very little to do with the original and works much better.

Energy came next. It was an attempt to completely automate the adjustment procedure. At it's heart was the old Ultra Scan formula. Doc used to laugh and say that if they wouldn't buy Ultra Scan for $79 he's sell it to them for $300.

After than came the "program of the year" period. K-Gen, Thrormation, and all that followed. This was about the time I left the Methodology. A thing to remember was that by this time, Doc had his whole family working for him, and needed to pay several full time salaries. If he ever told people that this or that program was the best, or the final one, he would have to close down. He needed constant sales to drive the whole operation, so continued to develop them. As far as I can tell, they were all based on the Energy/Ultra Scan code with visual displays and some sort of a deceleration formula attached.

A note on TPR. Though called Phase I sometimes, it came long after Energy and Throromation. Developed primarily by Tom Hambleton as the centerpiece of a book Sartin wanted to write, it was later repudiated by Sartin, but it was one of the most successful programs to come out of the Methodology (I MAY be a little prejudiced here). Doc came up with the "smoke screen" thing after he started throwing everyone out of PIRCO (of the 16 guys who started PIRCO, only one, Tom Brohamer, lasted and he was "on the outs" for a couple of years.) Michael Pizzolla was removed when he wanted to be paid for his efforts, Tom Hambleton quickly followed when he demonstrated that TPR could easily win a race that Energy couldn't in front of a group at Saratoga and I wasn't far behind when I questioned why these two friends of mine, and Sartin's most loyal follower Bob Purdy, were all so summarily dismissed after years of faithful, unpaid service. Chop!

Unfortunately paranoia, greed and ill health killed what was once the strongest organization in handicapping. Today Doc is mostly bedridden and refuses to see anyone. They all "betrayed" him at one time or another, me included. A sad end to what once was a great idea.

Dick

[traynor]

Originally Posted by Dick Schmidt

Ultra Scan was the next program offered. Developed by Doc to shut up a client who was only interested in long shots, it turned out to be a surprisingly good program. The internal workings are very strange, as it adds a feet-per-second rating and a percentage figure together and divides by two, then multiplies by an arbitrary number I forget to "disguise" the ratings. Doc used to say that this was his most original idea.
Dick

It wasn't multiplication by an arbitrary number. The originals reversed the sort so the "US choices" were bottom to top, rather than top to bottom. Sartin referred to it somewhat obliquely as being "like discovering the atomic bomb by mistake."

[howardjim]

Thanks Dick for a complete and lucid anthology.

Surly I doubt, a gentleman indeed.

[Binder]

Dear Mr Schmidt
Thank you for you insight. I came into the methodology
very late. I was only a client for about two years, when I joined I was losing and very sad. I knew nothing at all about handicapping . I only learned what Doc told me in private phone calls and in a meeting with him in his office working on his program validator 2
I knew all the names you mentioned were at one time with Mr Sartin I recently for the first time ever have been able to read all Docs manuals and Follow Ups
I'm talking the very first ones The ones you edited When you guys were the great group Pirco seemed to be
Any way Its hurts It always hurts when you here things about a friend. I hate it
However the bottom line for me is. The methodology works I feel that it works and that is The Psychology of Winning
I just read on knowing that there is lots of positive stuff in all Doc's
work. That somehow got me to win. I am so honored that this man who helped me and others
still can go on
I thank 46 for mentioning my site
GS
Bill

[PlanB]

Binder, are you now a winning player?

[Binder]

Originally Posted by PlanB

Binder, are you now a winning player?

Hi Plan B

Yes I am very happy and I'm a consistent winner
The methodology ask that we base our progress in 20 race cycles
Mine are slightly less but just about what Doc said are the average for his winning clients I win about 50% of my races, betting 2 horse, with an average price of $13.00 I can not come close to the 63%that was once the mark of a winning client.
However then the methodology was more about win percentage
when I became a client the focus was on wagercapping
or rather profit. This according to the guidelines of the methodology
means hiding any horse that will pay less than 5/2 then betting
2 horses of your remaining contenders. One that will pay over 5/2 and the second bet being the best higher odds horse
GS
Bill

[Overlay]

Originally Posted by andicap

If anyone has a copy of Barry Meadow's article on Sartin, I would love to see it....

Thanks.

Here's an excerpt from the first page (for what it's worth)(from the October, 1997 issue of Meadow's Racing Monthly):

http://www.trpublishing.com/p0000443.htm

[Donnie]

Dick-
Appreciate the recap. Nice of you to do so!

[andicap]

Originally Posted by Binder

Dear Mr Schmidt
Thank you for you insight. I came into the methodology
very late. I was only a client for about two years, when I joined I was losing and very sad. I knew nothing at all about handicapping . I only learned what Doc told me in private phone calls and in a meeting with him in his office working on his program validator 2
I knew all the names you mentioned were at one time with Mr Sartin I recently for the first time ever have been able to read all Docs manuals and Follow Ups
I'm talking the very first ones The ones you edited When you guys were the great group Pirco seemed to be
Any way Its hurts It always hurts when you here things about a friend. I hate it
However the bottom line for me is. The methodology works I feel that it works and that is The Psychology of Winning
I just read on knowing that there is lots of positive stuff in all Doc's
work. That somehow got me to win. I am so honored that this man who helped me and others
still can go on
I thank 46 for mentioning my site
GS
Bill

Thank you Dick for the recap -- very helpful.

Now, Binder, I'm interested (in general terms I guess) of how the methodology is different than other forms of pace handicapping? Is is the energy usage that 46 referrs to? Is it a deceleration factor (adc is one I've seen somewhere). Is it all of the above and then some?
Again, not asking for the store just a bit of insight into what goes into the actual methodology as it is used by Sartinites today? (NOT the psychological or wagering stuff -- not minimizing its importance believe me!)

[timtam]

Hi Binder

Glad to hear your a winning player How many tracks do you play

per day and what type of wagers do you make? I know that Philly Park

can get pretty tricky at times

[46zilzal]

Originally Posted by andicap

of how the methodology is different than other forms of pace handicapping? Is is the energy usage that 46 referrs to? Is it a deceleration factor (adc is one I've seen somewhere). Is it all of the above and then some?
Again, not asking for the store just a bit of insight into what goes into the actual methodology as it is used by Sartinites today? (NOT the psychological or wagering stuff -- not minimizing its importance believe me!)

energy distribution attributes the running style to horses NOT the positional aspects of the Brohammer version.

To understand it requires a lot of work and is beyond the scope of a definition here without a copy of the software in front of you.

[andicap]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

energy distribution attributes the running style to horses NOT the positional aspects of the Brohammer version.

To understand it requires a lot of work and is beyond the scope of a definition here without a copy of the software in front of you.

You missed my point. I KNOW all about energy -- I use it every day in my handicapping (tho not in the exact way you do, but energy is energy no matter how many times Sartin dressed it up in new clothing and reinvented it to sell software. You spend too much energy early you poop out in the stretch. You learn to relax early you spread out your energy usage and have more left at the end. Real complicated stuff.)

I KNOW all about Brohamer -- I practically memorized the book -- and positional handicapping. You think I'm going to consider doing this part-time for a living without understanding the basics of running styles and pace? Have you read ANYTHING I've posted in my time here? Further I've written long posts asking energy questions of YOU that show my sophistication on the subject. (Examples on demand.)

Do I know it all? Of course not, especially among very lightly raced horses, which I rarely bet seriously. (For example you have referred to "projected" performance by rapidly improving young horses, an interesting concept I am comfortable with in concept, but not in detail, like how much to project their pace progression.) That's why I have asked many questions about energy of you and Keilan.

But don't treat me paternalistically, like I'm a raw newbie too green to understand the intricacies of energy. And feel welcome to read a series I'm writing about energy on my blog -- part one is up now -- and post critiques, brickbats, etc.

So read my post. I mean actually look at the words. I never asked WHAT was energy, only how much a part of the Metholology as it exists TODAY does energy entail and what are the other factors (such as ADC, which I have rarely confused with AC/DC, BTW) involved in the software Sartinites are using.