Flightline

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by mountainman

I get you. But for argument's sake-can you really picture Flightline losing to Onion or Prove Out?

Sure. Why not? If they ran Flightline 30 times, odds are somewhere along the line he gets beat.

[horsefan2019]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Sometimes a horse comes along that appears to be from "another planet". No other horse can get close to it, and the winning margins get larger as the fields get tougher and the distances get longer. In such cases, although watching these "freaks of nature" certainly warms the heart...retirement seems to be the rational option. Any future races appear as a foregone conclusion...IMO.

He was a cool horse to watch, but in far as the unpredictability of a race when he's in it, it was a forgone conclusion. So from a gambling aspect the races he was in weren't really interesting because you knew he would destroy the field, but from a spectator point of view of someone who wants to admire a superhorse he was one of those. Honestly with the way it works now is if a horse has a spectacular campaign in a year they are off to retirement. The owners don't want to lose their investment in case the horse gets injured in the future and it also works well for the horse because they are ensured a life of leisure for the rest of their life.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

There are no foregone conclusions in horse racing (as can be seen from the fact that the "great" horses of the past got beat eventually), and sports work best when they ensure enough competitions take place to provide a possibility of an upset.

I may not be the sentimental type, but I don't get too excited when I see outstanding horses towering over their short fields at miniscule odds. I'd rather see competitive fields where the odds are more appetizing. That's what this game needs more of...IMO.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by horsefan2019

He was a cool horse to watch, but in far as the unpredictability of a race when he's in it, it was a forgone conclusion. So from a gambling aspect the races he was in weren't really interesting because you knew he would destroy the field, but from a spectator point of view of someone who wants to admire a superhorse he was one of those. Honestly with the way it works now is if a horse has a spectacular campaign in a year they are off to retirement. The owners don't want to lose their investment in case the horse gets injured in the future and it also works well for the horse because they are ensured a life of leisure for the rest of their life.

It's worth noting that these retirements are less about "losing their investment because the horse gets injured" (the vast, vast majority of valuable stallions who suffer a racing injury can still go to stud) and more about "losing their investment value because the horse's form tails off and he starts losing races".

I mean, they're still the owners and I get that they want to make money, but we should be clear about what's going on. They want that pristine record.

[PalaceOfFortLarned]

A 2.5% stake in Flightline just sold for $4.6M today.

https://www.horseracingnation.com/ne..._6_million_123

[mountainman]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Sure. Why not? If they ran Flightline 30 times, odds are somewhere along the line he gets beat.

Twice in his prime? To horses like that?
btw..Secretariat lost (officially) five x. And ran 21 x. Not 30.

[Inner Dirt]

I don't know diddly squat about horse breeding. Is it possible that the quick retirement to make money in the breeding shed could be weakening the durability of the breed? You are breeding horses with no idea of their long term racing prospects.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by mountainman

Twice in his prime? To horses like that?
btw..Secretariat lost (officially) five x. And ran 21 x. Not 30.

Wasn't Prove Out in his 'prime'?

The horse was sold only a few weeks before the Woodward to Allen Jerkens and the horse absolutely demolished the great Forego by 6 lengths in track record time for 7 furlongs in his first start for him.

Two starts later, he blew the great stallion Halo away over 8.5 furlongs, again in track record time.

Meanwhile, Secretariat's preparation for the Woodward was a total joke. He wasn't even pointing for the race but was tossed in as if he was a benchwarmer when the forecast called for rain (Riva Ridge was the barn's original intended entrant). Secretariat had just run 2 weeks earlier in the Marlboro Cup (world record win). To put a cap on the botched training job, Secretariat was already training on the turf for the Man O'War when he was entered in the Woodward at the eleventh hour. Good way to F up a horse's form, I'd say...

[jimmyb]

I can't fault the owners for cashing in. Cost of purchase, vet bills, day rates, farrier costs, and who knows how many duds these owners have had that cost plenty.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt

I don't know diddly squat about horse breeding. Is it possible that the quick retirement to make money in the breeding shed could be weakening the durability of the breed? You are breeding horses with no idea of their long term racing prospects.

Very possible. I'm not an expert either, but many people who ARE experts have speculated about this.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Wasn't Prove Out in his 'prime'?

The horse was sold only a few weeks before the Woodward to Allen Jerkens and the horse absolutely demolished the great Forego by 6 lengths in track record time for 7 furlongs in his first start for him.

Two starts later, he blew the great stallion Halo away over 8.5 furlongs, again in track record time.

Meanwhile, Secretariat's preparation for the Woodward was a total joke. He wasn't even pointing for the race but was tossed in as if he was a benchwarmer when the forecast called for rain (Riva Ridge was the barn's original intended entrant). Secretariat had just run 2 weeks earlier in the Marlboro Cup (world record win). To put a cap on the botched training job, Secretariat was already training on the turf for the Man O'War when he was entered in the Woodward at the eleventh hour. Good way to F up a horse's form, I'd say...

You're right about the first part of it. Prove Out ran his eyeballs out, ran 2:25 and change (which I think is still the 2nd fastest ever 1 1/2 miles on dirt), and beat Secretariat on the square.

But the "lack of preparation" argument is just BS from the Secretariat fans who can't accept their hero didn't always win. He was in perfectly good form, and fired before and after the Woodward. Prove Out was just a good horse who ran his best race and was better that day. Secretariat still ran 1 1/2 miles in 2:26 or so, which indicates he ran his race.

[mountainman]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Wasn't Prove Out in his 'prime'?

The horse was sold only a few weeks before the Woodward to Allen Jerkens and the horse absolutely demolished the great Forego by 6 lengths in track record time for 7 furlongs in his first start for him.

Two starts later, he blew the great stallion Halo away over 8.5 furlongs, again in track record time.

Meanwhile, Secretariat's preparation for the Woodward was a total joke. He wasn't even pointing for the race but was tossed in as if he was a benchwarmer when the forecast called for rain (Riva Ridge was the barn's original intended entrant). Secretariat had just run 2 weeks earlier in the Marlboro Cup (world record win). To put a cap on the botched training job, Secretariat was already training on the turf for the Man O'War when he was entered in the Woodward at the eleventh hour. Good way to F up a horse's form, I'd say...

I meant that Secretariat was in his prime when Prove Out beat him.

And I have read all the excuses for Secretariat's not infrequent losses. Years ago one poster -in fact a sharp observer-literally thought, all things considered, that the horse's defeats should be somehow expunged and Secretariat's record read undefeated. What nonsense.

And with all respect, sir, I'm not at all sure that defeating a great "stallion" would much qualify a thoroughbred to beat Flightline.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by mountainman

And I have read all the excuses for Secretariat's not infrequent losses. Years ago one poster -in fact a sharp observer-literally thought, all things considered, that the horse's defeats should be somehow expunged and Secretariat's record read undefeated. What nonsense.

I've had the same experience in the past with Secretariat fans, and I remember being at some event where the late William Nack of Sports Illustrated actually said that. (Something like "Secretariat never got beat. Only the humans around him beat him.")

I really do think that the fact that great horses get beat if you run them enough is one of the wonderful things about this sport that we are losing sight of with careers like Flightline and Justify. Even Man O'War lost to Upset. Indeed, defeats can even be ennobling, such as when Seattle Slew lost to Exceller or when Zenyatta lost to Blame. The goal of the sport isn't to escape your career without a loss- it's to leave it all out there on the track.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

The goal of the sport isn't to escape your career without a loss- it's to leave it all out there on the track.

That depends on how we view horse racing as a business enterprise. If it's a form of "entertainment"...then the wishes of the audience must be taken into prime consideration. But if it's a "gambling game", then profit must be the primary concern...because that's how the score is kept in the gambling arena. For the gamblers and the owners alike.

[horsefan2019]

Originally Posted by PalaceOfFortLarned

A 2.5% stake in Flightline just sold for $4.6M today.

https://www.horseracingnation.com/ne..._6_million_123

The horse got more money for its fractional share than it did for winning the Classic.