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01-16-2019, 10:13 AM
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#31
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the little guy
I'm actually curious if anyone knows if the three Stronach Stable horses will be running without Lasix, and thus taking advantage of the weight break?
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I'm guessing that giving weight off is a way to discourage the use of Lasix. In this case it would be hypocritical of Stronach to run his horses on the stuff.
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01-16-2019, 10:46 AM
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#32
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7,325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobphilo
One could claim that anything that makes a horse feel good is performance enhancing. What we are talking about here is performance enhancement through medication. Specifically medication not being used to treat a diagnosed medical condition.
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That's a sneaky choice of words there, Bob.
I don't know who WE refers to, and I'm not sure you are the chosen spokesperson for the designated we, but I think this is a MUCH more complicated discussion than YOU apparently do.
That's cool. I think the Lasix debate obfuscates the real issues. It's an unfortunate distraction, at least in my opinion. Others will disagree. I'm fine with that.
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01-16-2019, 11:00 AM
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#33
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: JCapper Platinum: Kind of like Deep Blue... but for horses.
Posts: 5,258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the little guy
I'm actually curious if anyone knows if the three Stronach Stable horses will be running without Lasix, and thus taking advantage of the weight break?
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I did not know that.
Haven't looked at PPs yet (and likely won't until a day or two before race day.)
-jp
.
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01-16-2019, 11:10 AM
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#34
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 9,893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the little guy
I'm actually curious if anyone knows if the three Stronach Stable horses will be running without Lasix, and thus taking advantage of the weight break?
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In 2017, the Stronach horse ran on Lasix. In 2018, the two Stronach horses (owned with others) ran on Lasix. My bet is you knew this already.
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01-16-2019, 11:12 AM
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#35
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7,325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saratoga_Mike
In 2017, the Stronach horse ran on Lasix. In 2018, the two Stronach horses (owned with others) ran on Lasix. My bet is you knew this already.
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You just lost another bet.
But, hey, at least you got a cheap shot into your post.
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01-16-2019, 11:14 AM
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#36
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 9,893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the little guy
You just lost another bet.
But, hey, at least you got a cheap shot into your post.
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It was NOT meant as a cheap shot in anyway. You're a very knowledge handicapper. I've never said otherwise. I would have bet a lot that you knew. And yes, I lose a lot of bets.
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01-16-2019, 01:51 PM
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#37
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobphilo
One could claim that anything that makes a horse feel good is performance enhancing. What we are talking about here is performance enhancement through medication. Specifically medication not being used to treat a diagnosed medical condition.
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Yep.
And it's worth noting that in many other sports, even a diagnosed medical condition isn't a defense for the taking of performance enhancers unless there is a lot of documentation and strict limitations.
As I said, track athletes have been suspended two years for takiing cold medications. It didn't matter that they actually had colds, because the medication enhanced performance. That's what a serious drug testing protocol does.
Even if you believe in Lasix as a bleeding treatment, horse racing has gone about it all wrong, basically creating a system where the drug is routinely administered as a performance enhancer whether the horses are bleeding or not. If Lasix were treated the way sports that are actually serious about regulating drugs treat this sort of thing, the rule would be no Lasix at all except that a horseman could, at great time and expense, jump through a ton of regulatory hoops to establish that a particular horse was a chronic bleeder, which would then allow a state doctor to administer the medication, in a dose and at a time when it is most effective for treatment whether or not it is most conducive to improved performance. And the horse would be in a detention barn for a significant time up until the race to prevent masking of other drugs.
Horsemen wouldn't like that, because that isn't the reason they give their horses Lasix.
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01-17-2019, 09:18 AM
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#38
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,470
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???? What significance would there be to Stronach running without lasix?
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Who does the Racing Form Detective like in this one?
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01-17-2019, 09:48 AM
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#39
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 9,893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
???? What significance would there be to Stronach running without lasix?
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Stronach Group owns GP, and he's supported banning race-day Lasix in the past (I assume that's still his position, but not sure).
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01-17-2019, 10:49 AM
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#40
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sammy the sage
for those that think otherwise...glad you're in THE pools...
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This is always a LULZ moment...the whole "glad you're in the pools" comment...as if Sammy is extracting GOBS of money from the pools DAILY from RUBES like us...
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01-17-2019, 11:33 AM
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#41
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saratoga_Mike
Stronach Group owns GP, and he's supported banning race-day Lasix in the past (I assume that's still his position, but not sure).
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OK, TY.
So he would support it unless it affects him.
How Franky of him.
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01-17-2019, 12:46 PM
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#42
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saratoga_Mike
Stronach Group owns GP, and he's supported banning race-day Lasix in the past (I assume that's still his position, but not sure).
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These sorts of hypocrisy arguments don't do much for me.
It's like saying to the politician who supports campaign finance reform, "why are you taking those big donations, you hypocrite!". As long as the rules permit practically unlimited use of raceday Lasix as a doping agent and performance enhancer, you have to give it to your horse, no matter how you feel about it.
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01-17-2019, 12:52 PM
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#43
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 9,893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
These sorts of hypocrisy arguments don't do much for me.
It's like saying to the politician who supports campaign finance reform, "why are you taking those big donations, you hypocrite!". As long as the rules permit practically unlimited use of raceday Lasix as a doping agent and performance enhancer, you have to give it to your horse, no matter how you feel about it.
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I really wasn't making that argument, just answering Tom's question. I generally agree with your second paragraph. Anyway, I don't have a huge problem with Lasix.
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01-17-2019, 01:02 PM
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#44
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7,325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
These sorts of hypocrisy arguments don't do much for me.
It's like saying to the politician who supports campaign finance reform, "why are you taking those big donations, you hypocrite!". As long as the rules permit practically unlimited use of raceday Lasix as a doping agent and performance enhancer, you have to give it to your horse, no matter how you feel about it.
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This is actually a poor analogy in this case. It is not a Lasix optional argument we are discussing. TSG offered a weight break to those willing to run without Lasix, and like the others in the race, the entrants from TSG believe the weight break isn't worth not running with Lasix. I'm not knocking them, in fact I agree with them, but just pointing it out.
I should add, your wording about why Lasix is allowed does not transfer well to your supposed skills as a lawyer. Any judge would throw that argument where it belongs, in the trash. Try sticking to the facts. It's generally useful in debates...even occasionally on the internet.
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01-17-2019, 01:47 PM
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#45
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobphilo
One could claim that anything that makes a horse feel good is performance enhancing. What we are talking about here is performance enhancement through medication. Specifically medication not being used to treat a diagnosed medical condition.
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Why would giving Lasix make a horse feel good?
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