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Old 08-15-2022, 02:04 PM   #31
the little guy
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I am not an expert on turf courses but I suspect the basic problem is that any surface that you run a lot of races over, especially during a period when there isn't a lot of rain, is going to get torn up over time.
I honestly don't want to have to correct you all the time, but this is completely besides any point. That course was broken THE VERY FIRST WEEK THEY RAN ON IT. Pretty much the entire even relatively sophisticated handicapping community saw the issues on Derby weekend which was only a few days into the meet.
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Old 08-15-2022, 02:13 PM   #32
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This was just a placeholder for next year, when the Million will be run at its proper distance over the by-that-point CDI owned Colonial turf course, in a state where they can have a reason to call it the ARLINGTON Million. (Oooh - maybe they can tie it into honoring veterans, which would also be honoring Mr. D.)
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Old 08-15-2022, 02:26 PM   #33
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Why the in the hell would they try to grow a Bermuda based grass course in Kentucky? It's native to Florida and Gulfstream has abandoned it. IMO they will have to replace the Bermuda with something else. Here'sa though. How about Kentucky Blue grass?
Last week, Jason Beem's podcast had an interview with Colonial's trackman, Harrison Young, who's been in charge of their well-respected turf courses for a couple of years now. He was talking about them being Bermuda-based, so it's apparently not just a far south thing. Colonial and Churchill are close to the same latitude, although of course the local climates are different - to what extent that would affect Bermuda grass, I can't say.

From the podcast, it did sound like if you can get one growing, the rhizome-based growth structure of Bermuda can lend itself well to turf racing since the grass naturally spreads to fill empty spots (without needing to re-seed) and builds a well developed structure underneath the top surface that's very kind to horses.
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Old 08-15-2022, 03:52 PM   #34
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Why the in the hell would they try to grow a Bermuda based grass course in Kentucky? It's native to Florida and Gulfstream has abandoned it. IMO they will have to replace the Bermuda with something else. Here'sa though. How about Kentucky Blue grass?
My expertise on grass is limited to making a mess of my own lawns trying to get rid of weeds without killing the grass and trying to get consistency when parts of the lawn get a lot of shade and parts all sun.

Maybe they wanted something that could handle even more sun without drying out than Kentucky Blue grass (which I believe is actually known to handle a lot of sun and dry conditions fairly well compared to some others). I read that they wanted to give course more time to develop, but this has been going on for awhile. At some point you have realize you are probably using the wrong grass for the conditions and needs. Whatever they are doing, it better work soon because that course in its current condition is not good.
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Old 08-15-2022, 05:45 PM   #35
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Why the in the hell would they try to grow a Bermuda based grass course in Kentucky? It's native to Florida and Gulfstream has abandoned it. IMO they will have to replace the Bermuda with something else. Here'sa though. How about Kentucky Blue grass?
Id hire Carl Spackler to redo the turf course:

This is a hybrid. This is a cross, ah, of Bluegrass, Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent, and Northern California Sensemilia. The amazing stuff about this is, that you can play 36 holes on it in the afternoon, take it home and just get stoned to the bejeezus.
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Old 08-16-2022, 08:41 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by BarchCapper View Post
Last week, Jason Beem's podcast had an interview with Colonial's trackman, Harrison Young, who's been in charge of their well-respected turf courses for a couple of years now. He was talking about them being Bermuda-based, so it's apparently not just a far south thing. Colonial and Churchill are close to the same latitude, although of course the local climates are different - to what extent that would affect Bermuda grass, I can't say.

From the podcast, it did sound like if you can get one growing, the rhizome-based growth structure of Bermuda can lend itself well to turf racing since the grass naturally spreads to fill empty spots (without needing to re-seed) and builds a well developed structure underneath the top surface that's very kind to horses.
It could be but all I know is Gulfstream has abandoned it's turf racing because the turf was not safe and trainers were complaining about it. Their turf course was also Bermuda. Like you said maybe local climate thing but I believe Bermuda is native to Florida. I noticed that the NYRA tracks always have pristine looking grass as does Santa Anita , Keeneland and up here at Woodbine. Tampa also has a beautiful turf course although when they ran a few days there this summer it was getting torn up pretty good. I don't know why Churchill wouldn't use the formula NYRA or these other tracks with really nice turf courses have.
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Old 08-16-2022, 08:43 AM   #37
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My expertise on grass is limited to making a mess of my own lawns trying to get rid of weeds without killing the grass and trying to get consistency when parts of the lawn get a lot of shade and parts all sun.

Maybe they wanted something that could handle even more sun without drying out than Kentucky Blue grass (which I believe is actually known to handle a lot of sun and dry conditions fairly well compared to some others). I read that they wanted to give course more time to develop, but this has been going on for awhile. At some point you have realize you are probably using the wrong grass for the conditions and needs. Whatever they are doing, it better work soon because that course in its current condition is not good.
I don't know why that would be? They don't run in the hottest part of the summer at CD. It's May-June and a week in July, then September and November.
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Old 08-16-2022, 09:15 AM   #38
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It could be but all I know is Gulfstream has abandoned it's turf racing because the turf was not safe and trainers were complaining about it. Their turf course was also Bermuda. Like you said maybe local climate thing but I believe Bermuda is native to Florida. I noticed that the NYRA tracks always have pristine looking grass as does Santa Anita , Keeneland and up here at Woodbine. Tampa also has a beautiful turf course although when they ran a few days there this summer it was getting torn up pretty good. I don't know why Churchill wouldn't use the formula NYRA or these other tracks with really nice turf courses have.
Santa Anita has lots of problems maintaining its turf course and has for a long time. Don't let the green grass fool you.
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Old 08-16-2022, 09:50 AM   #39
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It could be but all I know is Gulfstream has abandoned it's turf racing because the turf was not safe and trainers were complaining about it. Their turf course was also Bermuda. Like you said maybe local climate thing but I believe Bermuda is native to Florida. I noticed that the NYRA tracks always have pristine looking grass as does Santa Anita , Keeneland and up here at Woodbine. Tampa also has a beautiful turf course although when they ran a few days there this summer it was getting torn up pretty good. I don't know why Churchill wouldn't use the formula NYRA or these other tracks with really nice turf courses have.
The 2 day Tampa summer meet marks the last day of the previous meet and the start of the next. Im sure its a legal thing so they can claim they race 365 days a year. That meet is also 75% turf races so they wear it out quick in 48 hours. The NOV-MAY portion of the meet the turf stays great except when we get too much rain. Not sure what GPs issue is.
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Old 08-16-2022, 03:38 PM   #40
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Santa Anita has lots of problems maintaining its turf course and has for a long time. Don't let the green grass fool you.
I'd imagine running 4-5 turf races on it three times per week over a six month span is highly unstainable in the long run.
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Old 08-16-2022, 04:03 PM   #41
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The 2 day Tampa summer meet marks the last day of the previous meet and the start of the next. Im sure its a legal thing so they can claim they race 365 days a year. That meet is also 75% turf races so they wear it out quick in 48 hours. The NOV-MAY portion of the meet the turf stays great except when we get too much rain. Not sure what GPs issue is.
In Florida, the fiscal year starts on July 1st and ends on June 30th. Running those days enables the track to be classified as a year round racing facility and allows it "control its simulcast income," whatever that means.
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Old 08-16-2022, 05:41 PM   #42
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Id hire Carl Spackler to redo the turf course:

This is a hybrid. This is a cross, ah, of Bluegrass, Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent, and Northern California Sensemilia. The amazing stuff about this is, that you can play 36 holes on it in the afternoon, take it home and just get stoned to the bejeezus.

That's the man for the job...Cinderella boy !
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Old 08-17-2022, 10:18 PM   #43
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It could be but all I know is Gulfstream has abandoned it's turf racing because the turf was not safe and trainers were complaining about it. Their turf course was also Bermuda. Like you said maybe local climate thing but I believe Bermuda is native to Florida. I noticed that the NYRA tracks always have pristine looking grass as does Santa Anita , Keeneland and up here at Woodbine. Tampa also has a beautiful turf course although when they ran a few days there this summer it was getting torn up pretty good. I don't know why Churchill wouldn't use the formula NYRA or these other tracks with really nice turf courses have.
Much of the advantage NYRA has is from the fact that they have three tracks each with two turf courses located inside a 1 1/8 (AQU, SAR) or 1 1/2 mile (BEL) main track.

We'll have to see how NYRA manages turf racing at Aqueduct this fall, since there will be almost three months with turf racing before winter; NYRA typically can run turf races into early December, but that was predicated on running at Belmont until the end of October before moving to Aqueduct for the winter.

Keeneland has the advantage of only conducting six weeks of racing a year, three weeks each in April and October, plus the occasional Breeders Cup weekend.

Churchill as a company had a racetrack that offered considerable flexibility in the use of its turf course, with the additional turf pspace offered by being situated inside a 1 1/8 mile main track rather than a mile track, but that track, Arlington, is unlikely to ever host another horse race.
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Old 08-18-2022, 08:30 AM   #44
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That's the man for the job...Cinderella boy !
Especially since I saw a gopher hole on the turf course yesterday.
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Old 08-18-2022, 06:06 PM   #45
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