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Old 08-07-2022, 11:55 AM   #16
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First they were scraping too much at NYRA on big days and killing horses (this was back in the day...and we all remember it)...now you guys are complaining it's too deep and horses are getting too tired...

They're right...all people do now is complain about EVERYTHING...and I mean EVERYTHING...

Taking whatever scrap of joy is left in this sport and just SUCKING it right out the window...

I blame twitter...lol

From announcers to analysts to track surfaces to questionable rides to whatever...complain complain complain complain complain complain

It's because y'all are losing your asses at the windows, right?

Complaining serves as a good distraction I suppose
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Old 08-07-2022, 12:08 PM   #17
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The materials mix of the Saratoga dirt surface saw a change prior to the 2017 meet.

The following article from July 6, 2017 now sits behind a paywall. That wasn't the case when I read it a few weeks before opening day of the 2017 meet, and below is a partial quote.

TimesUnion.com | by Wendy Liberatore | July 6, 2017 | Updated: July 7, 2017 8 a.m.
NYRA upgrades track surface in advance of Saratoga racing season:
https://www.timesunion.com/local/art...g-11270686.php

Quote:
SARATOGA SPRINGS - The Saratoga Race Course is opening in two weeks. And in preparation, the track just underwent its annual makeovers including drainage upgrades to both the main and Oklahoma tracks as well as a revamped surface to main course to better pad the horses' hooves.

"We perform analysis and standard maintenance work on each racing surface at Saratoga throughout the year in the weeks leading up to the opening of Oklahoma Training Track and the main track," said Pat McKenna, director of communications for the New York Racing Association.

McKenna, who would not disclose the cost of the upgrades, said this year's maintenance included regrading and updating the inner and outer rail drainage ditches at both tracks. NYRA also added cushion to the main track only with a combination of sand and clay.
I bolded the last sentence because I think it's important if you are trying to understand track bias.

Clay holds on to moisture a lot longer than sand and topsoil.

For the 2016 and prior meets the Saratoga dirt surface seemed to dry out quickly, and speed was the universal bias (at least based on historical win rates of early pace factors in my databases.)

Starting with the 2017 meet:

The track bias for the dirt surface changed.

Speed has done reasonably well PROVIDED the dirt surface is completely dry.

But after a rain, it takes longer to dry out than it previously did.

And until that happens, the track is more tiring than it previously was.

I'm not saying the old surface was better or anything like that.

What I am saying is that every track surface is unique.

The materials mix, track maintenance, and weather all play a part in shaping track bias.




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Old 08-07-2022, 12:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
First they were scraping too much at NYRA on big days and killing horses (this was back in the day...and we all remember it)...now you guys are complaining it's too deep and horses are getting too tired...

They're right...all people do now is complain about EVERYTHING...and I mean EVERYTHING...

Taking whatever scrap of joy is left in this sport and just SUCKING it right out the window...

I blame twitter...lol

From announcers to analysts to track surfaces to questionable rides to whatever...complain complain complain complain complain complain

It's because y'all are losing your asses at the windows, right?

Complaining serves as a good distraction I suppose
Just an observation PA.

I won yesterday. Somehow.

Track at Toga has been tiring, and slow. Facts prove that. It is a factor one has to take into consideration of handicapping races this meet. Good, bad, or indifferent it has to be acknowledged.
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Old 08-07-2022, 12:35 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff P View Post
The materials mix of the Saratoga dirt surface saw a change prior to the 2017 meet.

The following article from July 6, 2017 now sits behind a paywall. That wasn't the case when I read it a few weeks before opening day of the 2017 meet, and below is a partial quote.

TimesUnion.com | by Wendy Liberatore | July 6, 2017 | Updated: July 7, 2017 8 a.m.
NYRA upgrades track surface in advance of Saratoga racing season:
https://www.timesunion.com/local/art...g-11270686.php



I bolded the last sentence because I think it's important if you are trying to understand track bias.

Clay holds on to moisture a lot longer than sand and topsoil.

For the 2016 and prior meets the Saratoga dirt surface seemed to dry out quickly, and speed was the universal bias (at least based on historical win rates of early pace factors in my databases.)

Starting with the 2017 meet:

The track bias for the dirt surface changed.

Speed has done reasonably well PROVIDED the dirt surface is completely dry.

But after a rain, it takes longer to dry out than it previously did.

And until that happens, the track is more tiring than it previously was.

I'm not saying the old surface was better or anything like that.

What I am saying is that every track surface is unique.

The materials mix, track maintenance, and weather all play a part in shaping track bias.




-jp
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Thanks JP. That is very interesting.

2016 Arrogate set a track record at 10F in 1:59.36 in the Travers.
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Old 08-07-2022, 12:45 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by PalaceOfFortLarned View Post
Just an observation PA.

I won yesterday. Somehow.

Track at Toga has been tiring, and slow. Facts prove that. It is a factor one has to take into consideration of handicapping races this meet. Good, bad, or indifferent it has to be acknowledged.
Acknowledging is one thing...judging it to be some god-awful freak of nature is another
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Old 08-07-2022, 12:54 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
Acknowledging is one thing...judging it to be some god-awful freak of nature is another

Who said it was a freak of nature?

And I'm doing just fine with my wagering, thank you very much, and I don't hear a lot of whining here from others either

Would it be so hard to constantly think about how to improve the surface?

Or is just "I'll look into it" after it becomes practically Captain Obvious that it should be looked into

I guess that's leading practice, not just another case of Saratoga succeeding regardless of NYRA
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Old 08-07-2022, 01:02 PM   #22
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They should use the turf temporary rails on dirt, adjust when the rail is dead or golden to even things out.

btw, we were talking here in around 2007 that the horses were struggling home in the stretch of 9 furlong races. Been a lot of pretty good horses strugglimg home the last 15 years.
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Old 08-07-2022, 01:07 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Sheffwed View Post
Who said it was a freak of nature?

And I'm doing just fine with my wagering, thank you very much, and I don't hear a lot of whining here from others either

Would it be so hard to constantly think about how to improve the surface?

Or is just "I'll look into it" after it becomes practically Captain Obvious that it should be looked into

I guess that's leading practice, not just another case of Saratoga succeeding regardless of NYRA
People complained for a decade+ about the scraping...now that they don't scrape anymore on the big days to get the super-fast times, the complaining has changed to "it's too deep"

Like I said...always complaining about something
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Old 08-07-2022, 01:09 PM   #24
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People complained for a decade+ about the scraping...now that they don't scrape anymore on the big days to get the super-fast times, the complaining has changed to "it's too deep"

Like I said...always complaining about something
Wasn't just people it was some high profile Trainers.

https://www.drf.com/news/some-traine...-rail-too-deep
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Old 08-07-2022, 01:10 PM   #25
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Wasn't just people it was some high profile Trainers.
Their complaints are usually even more suspect then the ordinary Joe's...

I'm just sad "cuppy track" doesn't seem to get used anywhere near as often as an excuse these days...that was a fun one.
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Old 08-07-2022, 06:45 PM   #26
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Wasn't just people it was some high profile Trainers.

https://www.drf.com/news/some-traine...-rail-too-deep
Who was the "high profile trainer" besides Todd?
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Old 08-07-2022, 10:48 PM   #27
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Who was the "high profile trainer" besides Todd?
Give it up. You were wrong. No need to move sideways.
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Old 08-08-2022, 08:55 AM   #28
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Give it up. You were wrong. No need to move sideways.
I'm not wrong and I want to know who the high profile trainer was besides Todd. It's a fair question given your claim.

There wasn't one, that's why you deflected.

You have little to no idea what actually goes on here. You can pretend you do all you want, apparently that's what the internet is for, but it doesn't change things.
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Old 08-08-2022, 09:35 AM   #29
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I'm not wrong and I want to know who the high profile trainer was besides Todd. It's a fair question given your claim.

There wasn't one, that's why you deflected.

You have little to no idea what actually goes on here. You can pretend you do all you want, apparently that's what the internet is for, but it doesn't change things.
For semantics' and clarity's sake, if AA had said "Wasn't just people, it was *a* high profile trainer" or "it was some trainers [article headline], including a pretty high profile one" what tack does the response thread take? To be fair, the response above does seem to deflect in the other direction a little, as if Todd Pletcher saying what he did isn't noteworthy or weighty at all vis-a-vis the internet whinings of a few of us BDHs (old Dave Feldman readers, anyone?).

I think we all know that track maintenance is a tricky thing with constantly changing conditions and there are some pretty impressive track men out there - Glen Kozak being one of the best. I think we also know the input of trainers in these matters isn't ignored. Maybe that is all that needs to be said.
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Old 08-08-2022, 10:05 AM   #30
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