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Old 02-05-2019, 07:21 PM   #16
Clocker
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With the weather here and the demographics racing should thrive here. Hell the indians are cleaning up.
I don't think the locals are at the top of the concern list for management.

Especially during bad weather in the northern states, TuP lives on M-T-W racing. Yesterday, Monday, the on-track handle was $44,029. That's all bets, 8 races.

The off-track handle was just a hair under $1.5 million.
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Old 02-05-2019, 07:26 PM   #17
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I don't think the locals are at the top of the concern list for management.

Especially during bad weather in the northern states, TuP lives on M-T-W racing. Yesterday, Monday, the on-track handle was $44,029. That's all bets, 8 races.

The off-track handle was just a hair under $1.5 million.
$44k on all races, on track-thats brutal
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Old 02-05-2019, 10:12 PM   #18
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There are some excellent trainers at the small tracks. And there are dirtbag trainers at the largest tracks. Some really good trainers cut their teeth in the minor leagues, Baffert and the Engelhardts to name a few.
Itís called a generalization. How many of these are up-and-coming top trainers? If youíre any good, you wonít be at the bottom for too long.
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Old 02-06-2019, 08:37 AM   #19
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I think you have to know something about the soil to say a track is harder than another surface just because it is fast. Turf Paradise has a very unusual mix of clay and sand that you probably dont see anywhere else in America.

I would venture that the biggest issue is if you dont run the horses you might as well retire the unsound ones since you cant really justify long periods of time off for the type of returns you are going to get at that track.

I have no sympathy for TuP, the owner and management have not done any horseplayer in AZ favors over the past 20 years.

With the weather here and the demographics racing should thrive here. Hell the indians are cleaning up.
If really cheap horses are putting up really fast times like they've done at Turf Paradise for 40 years, doesn't the surface HAVE to be hard (and therefore less forgiving and more likely to lead to breakdowns)? I've never heard of slow horses putting up really fast times on a soft, forgiving fast track. I don't see any other explanation.
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Old 02-06-2019, 09:48 AM   #20
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O.P. and article question why the numbers are roughly double what they were over last year and previous years at TuP. All of these criticisms and explanations may answer some other question, but not why the sudden increase. The horses didnt get "inferior" this year or develop problems for the first time this year. The economics didn't suddenly become what they are, been that way for decades. The track wasn't deep and slow prior to this year. The trainers didn't become less intelligent and capable than they were last year.
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Old 02-06-2019, 12:10 PM   #21
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O.P. and article question why the numbers are roughly double what they were over last year and previous years at TuP. All of these criticisms and explanations may answer some other question, but not why the sudden increase. The horses didnt get "inferior" this year or develop problems for the first time this year. The economics didn't suddenly become what they are, been that way for decades. The track wasn't deep and slow prior to this year. The trainers didn't become less intelligent and capable than they were last year.
Very good observation. Virtually nothing changed. Only thing we know for sure is they removed the cushion to race bikes on the base. I donít know the exact correlation on that date and when breakdowns went up. But I will tell you the first year Canterbury opened they had the finest track in the country as far as forgiveness on horses. Then after first meet removed the surface and ran jug heads. Track was never the same again
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Old 02-06-2019, 12:24 PM   #22
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I don't think the locals are at the top of the concern list for management.

Especially during bad weather in the northern states, TuP lives on M-T-W racing. Yesterday, Monday, the on-track handle was $44,029. That's all bets, 8 races.

The off-track handle was just a hair under $1.5 million.
Somebody in the know, tell us how much the track took in. Gross.
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Old 02-06-2019, 01:38 PM   #23
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Arizona racehorses are dying at a record rate. The question is: why?

FWIW, as this excerpt from my Workout Pars research database shows, TUP has the second highest (fastest) WO Par @4F. Only PID is higher. Also, TUP has the third highest WO Pars @3F & 5F.

Certainly the quality of horses running there do not correlate with the fast speeds they are clocking during training hours. I agree with those in this thread who believe the surface is the most likely primary reason for these breakdowns.

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Old 02-06-2019, 06:48 PM   #24
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If really cheap horses are putting up really fast times like they've done at Turf Paradise for 40 years, doesn't the surface HAVE to be hard (and therefore less forgiving and more likely to lead to breakdowns)? I've never heard of slow horses putting up really fast times on a soft, forgiving fast track. I don't see any other explanation.
I dont think soft track equals safe track. I think unsound horses equal more injuries.
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Old 02-06-2019, 06:49 PM   #25
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FWIW, as this excerpt from my Workout Pars research database shows, TUP has the second highest (fastest) WO Par @4F. Only PID is higher. Also, TUP has the third highest WO Pars @3F & 5F.

Certainly the quality of horses running there do not correlate with the fast speeds they are clocking during training hours. I agree with those in this thread who believe the surface is the most likely primary reason for these breakdowns.
its been this way for 40 years...why the sudden increase? The track speed and composition is not the reason.
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Old 02-06-2019, 07:11 PM   #26
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I dont think soft track equals safe track. I think unsound horses equal more injuries.
And a lot of that is on the trainers, not the track. It would be interesting to see a break-down of injuries by trainers. Successful trainers would not be back year after year if they were experiencing a high level of injuries.
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Old 02-07-2019, 12:53 PM   #27
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there are a lot of different angles one could look at. and in the end it may all end up just being shit ass luck and turn around and have 50% less breakdowns next year.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:18 PM   #28
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Turf Paradise is an extremely fast track, probably the fastest track, which usually means that it doesn't have enough cushion.
I remember some number of years ago if it rained in Phoenix they would either cancel races or move them to the turf. The track was not mostly sand like a number of other tracks. I think it is a lot more loamy that packs down easily. I'm not dismissing the cushion suggestion, just writing what I remember.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:40 PM   #29
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I remember some number of years ago if it rained in Phoenix they would either cancel races or move them to the turf. The track was not mostly sand like a number of other tracks. I think it is a lot more loamy that packs down easily. I'm not dismissing the cushion suggestion, just writing what I remember.
They used to move it to turf.

It has a much higher clay content than sand. Sand actually has the best drainage properties. Clay tends to hold water and dry out the least, so it would get super deep mud.
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:25 PM   #30
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I have been playing TuP the last couple of years around this time of year because they race on M-T-W and because they rarely if ever cancel a card because of bad weather like the northern tracks do.

On the rare days when it does rain, they do what other tracks usually do, move races off-turf and run everything on the dirt. I think there have been a few days this year when the track condition was "muddy-sealed".
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