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06-02-2010, 09:39 AM
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 66
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Anyone use Moss Pace figures in Formulator?
I've been buying PP's with these included, without ever using them. There doesn't seem to be any explanation on how they are derived on DRF.com but I'm probably missing something. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
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06-02-2010, 09:42 AM
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#2
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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06-02-2010, 11:13 AM
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 66
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Don't know how I missed it but thanks!
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06-02-2010, 12:06 PM
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#4
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hencicleva
Don't know how I missed it but thanks!
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No worries, I don't know how I found it!
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06-02-2010, 12:13 PM
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#5
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C'est Tout
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cajunland
Posts: 13,272
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These figs seem to me to be a hairball. Why convert the final fig (which is the speed fig) from Beyer to his scale? Convert his numbers to Beyers instead, eh? Now you have pace figs on one scale and the Beyer on another; hence 2 different speed figs will be listed(the Beyer and Moss' converted Beyer)...confusion for some I would imagine.
Davidowitz has pace figs on the Beyer scale and that is what DRF should have used imo.
__________________
How do I work this?
-David Byrne
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06-02-2010, 04:11 PM
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,613
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by PhantomOnTour
These figs seem to me to be a hairball. Why convert the final fig (which is the speed fig) from Beyer to his scale? Convert his numbers to Beyers instead, eh? Now you have pace figs on one scale and the Beyer on another; hence 2 different speed figs will be listed(the Beyer and Moss' converted Beyer)...confusion for some I would imagine.
Davidowitz has pace figs on the Beyer scale and that is what DRF should have used imo.
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There were several reasons, but one of them is that at 2F a 1/5th of second is quite significant. So if the pace is slow, it will produce a negative pace figure on the Beyer scale quite frequently.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
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06-02-2010, 07:00 PM
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#7
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by classhandicapper
There were several reasons, but one of them is that at 2F a 1/5th of second is quite significant. So if the pace is slow, it will produce a negative pace figure on the Beyer scale quite frequently.
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When horses are that bad, they still rarely ever would produce a subzero Beyer for 1/4. Really bad horses still run faster early than late.
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06-03-2010, 01:41 AM
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: pen
Posts: 4,584
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by PhantomOnTour
Davidowitz has pace figs on the Beyer scale and that is what DRF should have used imo.
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actually in chapter 17 (converting beyer figures for pace analysis) of his book betting thoroughbreds, mr davidowitz recommended using a tighter (moss style) scale for his ratings.
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06-03-2010, 10:39 AM
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#9
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by proximity
actually in chapter 17 (converting beyer figures for pace analysis) of his book betting thoroughbreds, mr davidowitz recommended using a tighter (moss style) scale for his ratings.
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I've read pretty much everything I can find on horse racing, and I can honestly say I have NEVER come close to figuring out what he is talking about in the chapter. I have asked others and nobody gets it. It was also removed from the latest revision of the book.
Don't get me wrong, I do understand about the smaller scale, but the chapter as a whole is mind boggling.
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06-03-2010, 10:47 AM
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#10
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C'est Tout
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cajunland
Posts: 13,272
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by cj
I've read pretty much everything I can find on horse racing, and I can honestly say I have NEVER come close to figuring out what he is talking about in the chapter. I have asked others and nobody gets it. It was also removed from the latest revision of the book.
Don't get me wrong, I do understand about the smaller scale, but the chapter as a whole is mind boggling.
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Thank you CJ!! I also felt like total idiot when reading this chapter (still felt dumb when I re-read the chapter)....the concept escaped me totally which is one reason I use Quirin style figs. Needed pace numbers and couldn't grasp the Beyer conversion stuff that Steve D was talking about. That's funny.
__________________
How do I work this?
-David Byrne
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06-03-2010, 10:52 AM
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,569
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by cj
I've read pretty much everything I can find on horse racing, and I can honestly say I have NEVER come close to figuring out what he is talking about in the chapter. I have asked others and nobody gets it. It was also removed from the latest revision of the book.
Don't get me wrong, I do understand about the smaller scale, but the chapter as a whole is mind boggling.
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LOL...and I thought I was the only one...
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06-03-2010, 11:20 AM
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#12
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,887
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THANKS GUYS!
All these years I thought I was just to dumb to get it! Whew! 
__________________
Who does the Racing Form Detective like in this one?
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06-03-2010, 12:16 PM
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#13
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Traded By Cubs
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: 2 miles north of Wrigley Field
Posts: 5,339
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Me too. Never have figured them out, no matter the author. Actually, I'm a pace figure skeptic, though they work for others in their line of thought. I more agree with Steve D.' latter asssesment in the book, that there are errors in the margins due to the human calls, plus I know of plenty of timing errors, etc. I more like to know was it the fastest or slowest pace of the day(or close to it,) and just include that in my thinking. (Not claiming to be a big success, not betting right now.)
I must admit that Moss's explaination of them, as well as Brohammer's book, confuse me at first and then make me sleepy.
Last edited by Steve 'StatMan'; 06-03-2010 at 12:17 PM.
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06-03-2010, 02:45 PM
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: pen
Posts: 4,584
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by cj
I've read pretty much everything I can find on horse racing, and I can honestly say I have NEVER come close to figuring out what he is talking about in the chapter. I have asked others and nobody gets it. It was also removed from the latest revision of the book.
Don't get me wrong, I do understand about the smaller scale, but the chapter as a whole is mind boggling.
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we can talk about it the next time you see me at charles town.
just make sure that i'm drunk first!!
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06-03-2010, 03:38 PM
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#15
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by proximity
we can talk about it the next time you see me at charles town.
just make sure that i'm drunk first!! |
If you can explain the chapter, the first and all drinks are on me.
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