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Old 11-25-2019, 07:32 AM   #16
GMB@BP
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Originally Posted by Jeff P View Post
Something tells me they have a direct CRW tie in to the tote. A single command from an algorithm submits a 'package' of (what they see as) optimal ticket structure for each pool given the situation per their numbers.

I'm also guessing none of them are using Twinspires (or Roberts) video.

They're teams. Think mini corporation.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of them have on track agents using an app on an IPhone to stream video of certain horses warming up along with the gate load, etc. They'd know if their contenders are looking and acting the part or if one of them (or the race favorite who they are betting against) is acting up at the gate.

That would enable their algorithms to be updated in real time for last minute info --

These are things I'd do if I were betting the kind of money they are.


-jp
yup...the game is really rigged against the rest of us. Maybe it always has been, just seems worse now, and betting into it kind of makes me feel like an idiot.
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Old 11-25-2019, 08:47 AM   #17
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yup...the game is really rigged against the rest of us. Maybe it always has been, just seems worse now, and betting into it kind of makes me feel like an idiot.
It IS rigged in the sense of trying to compete against these teams. However, if you are a recreational player, like me, I'd be spending money on other things instead for entertainment. I'm kinda a homebody, so I don't enjoy travelling, cruises, etc. I'd just as soon go to live racing at Oaklawn and I'm happy doing that. That, and a little fishing, and I'm happy on my home turf. I think of the meet as my "vacation" every year. I win some, I lose some.......not pushing hundreds of thousands across the counter.
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Old 11-25-2019, 08:54 AM   #18
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You can get a good direct connection to Amwager's servers and a CRW API programming interface for the asking.

Go here to set up an Amwager account: https://pro.amwager.com/#/aff/6

Or if you already have an account - and the idea of last minute access to pool data and programmatic creation and submission of batched wagers (e.g. several hundred) makes sense for your level of interest in the game and you have or can hire the programming skills - then contact Jason at Amwager (Gorrex here at PA) and ask for access to their API.

I don't think they impose a minimum handle requirement.

Submitting wagers directly by API is a little faster than first creating a file then manually uploading the file. I think access to an ADW's API is a little slower than direct access to a tote hub's API (by milliseconds, not several seconds), but think: watching the video, first horse enters the gate, your software says 'PLAY' (bets make sense according to odds mix of your contenders and various pool bets), you hit the button, wagers are there a second later with a confirmation code. This is a late as anyone (IMO) has access to tote data before wager cutoff.

I have been working on Hong Kong over the past year using Amwager's API and video feed (from Roberts Communication). The pool info refreshes on the order of each 10 seconds or less near post time. Each race day, I calibrate the time stamp on the HKJC video feed to my computer clock (after re-synching it to the MS time server). Usually I lag them by between 8 and 10 seconds, so this tells me I can comfortably submit wagers when the first horse enters the gate, and I am rarely shut out when I wait this long (though I do try to get bets down earlier, though as late as possible).

Among the reasons I like Hong Kong is that they spend a lot of time on horse physicality and race day temperament and video seems to linger sufficiently on horses at various pre-race points that if you know what you're looking for (or want to accept the commentators opinions) you can check the physicality box, however that may be important to your decision process.

Your mileage may vary for North American tracks: different video lag, spotty physicality inspection opportunities (though Woodbine does seem to have good video of the saddling enclosures and post parades). But it sure seems to me that you get the same late pool data, refreshed frequently and in real-time. Compared to Amwager, Twinspires is a joke.

Amwager doesn't do Churchill Downs tracks (CD, FG, AP, HOO, a few others). I know of a few other direct connect API's from other ADWs but as Jeff mentions, they all seem to require significant handle for access.

I have been happy with Amwager, though the API access is not for casual players. However, is it NOT out of reach to anyone here (nor are the Amwager rebates). There is no excuse not to use the same tools or access the same late data as the 'big boys'. You still need a functional handicapping and wager structuring model.

If you live in a state or country from which you cannot actually BET via Amwager, they will none-the-less set up a FREE account for you to at least access their tote and video system (and API) though not place wagers. Just use the link provided above. Jason/'Gorrex' is VERY helpful and responsive - can't speak more highly of him!

Ted
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Last edited by Ted Craven; 11-25-2019 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:06 PM   #19
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[quote=Ted Craven;2538992]You can get a good direct connection to Amwager's servers and a CRW API programming interface for the asking.[/URL]

Great information! The whole post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Craven View Post
You can get a good direct connection to Amwager'sAmong the reasons I like Hong Kong is that they spend a lot of time on horse physicality and race day temperament and video seems to linger sufficiently on horses at various pre-race points that if you know what you're looking for
That is why I like it, too. If you can't go to a track in person, you will not get better views than this.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:43 PM   #20
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There's very little difference between producing a batch betting file for upload , and what the computer boys do.



Trivial really. Unless you think they have some kind of special access to data you can't get. Do you ?
The difference in speed between Text File Upload (slower) and CRW (faster) might seem trivial at first glance.

I can assure you it is not. At least not to the high volume team betting 100's of millions per year.

Think of it this way, all else being equal:

He who bets last (or cancels last) bets best.

Why?

Because he who bets last (or cancels last) has more information from which to formulate bets than those who have already bet.

If submitting a batch of new wagers using CRW (or canceling bets already submitted) at the last possible instant before the race off takes 0.17 seconds...

And uploading a text file takes 1.14 seconds...

Who gets to bet last?


-jp

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Old 11-25-2019, 02:03 PM   #21
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Plenty of reasons to think that "Funny Business" is going on in this game and this is just another one.
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Old 11-25-2019, 03:02 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Jeff P View Post
The difference in speed between Text File Upload (slower) and CRW (faster) might seem trivial at first glance.

I can assure you it is not. At least not to the high volume team betting 100's of millions per year.

Think of it this way, all else being equal:

He who bets last (or cancels last) bets best.

Why?

Because he who bets last (or cancels last) has more information from which to formulate bets than those who have already bet.

If submitting a batch of new wagers using CRW (or canceling bets already submitted) at the last possible instant before the race off takes 0.17 seconds...

And uploading a text file takes 1.14 seconds...

Who gets to bet last?


-jp

.
these are the key components to overcoming takeout, the ability to cancel already made bets and bet new ones at the very right time. like they say in life, TIMING IS EVERYTHING.

since i can't do this, i have cut my bets down to hardly anything, along with that my rebate got taken away from me. like everything else in the world these days, this game caters to the bigger players and has no room for people like us.
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Old 11-25-2019, 04:55 PM   #23
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Or the tracks could allow independent bookmakers to set up shop there and offer fixed odds, like they do in Europe. Could be limited to win bets and the color of the Queens hat. And limit it to bettors at the track, which would give people a reason to show up.
We already have fixed odds betting here in jersey via the exchange.

Allan
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Old 11-25-2019, 05:34 PM   #24
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I don't know how these guys place their wagers at the last seconds of the betting period. When I try to place a late wager using the Twinspires video feed...I am told that the race is off even though there are three horses yet to be loaded into the starting gate.
You need to use the "Special" login.
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Old 11-25-2019, 06:47 PM   #25
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It IS rigged in the sense of trying to compete against these teams. However, if you are a recreational player, like me, I'd be spending money on other things instead for entertainment. I'm kinda a homebody, so I don't enjoy travelling, cruises, etc. I'd just as soon go to live racing at Oaklawn and I'm happy doing that. That, and a little fishing, and I'm happy on my home turf. I think of the meet as my "vacation" every year. I win some, I lose some.......not pushing hundreds of thousands across the counter.
same here, I look at it like entertainment money. I usually do okay in terms of not losing much, or making much (though got killed last year).

I used to bet real money, 6 figures Ez, now maybe 10k a year.
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Old 11-25-2019, 07:41 PM   #26
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Plenty of reasons to think that "Funny Business" is going on in this game and this is just another one.
If it were up to you, we'd all still have to go to the track and wait in either the $2, $5 or $100 line.

It's called adapt or die. It's been that way with all things competitive for millenia.
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Old 11-25-2019, 08:00 PM   #27
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We already have fixed odds betting here in jersey via the exchange.

Allan
It's legal in California as well, but they never actually put it in play. Why? Can't walk and chew gum at the same time? One crisis at a time? What a frickin joke.
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Old 11-25-2019, 08:04 PM   #28
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It's called adapt or die. It's been that way with all things competitive for millenia.
The industry needs to adapt or it will die.
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Old 11-25-2019, 10:24 PM   #29
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Really looks bad. I know it happens ALL the time, but when your on a winner that was 5 / 1 at the start and drops to 2/1 at the finish. Justdoesnt look good.
Sorry, but I have entirely different outlook. Granted occasionally these sort of things will happen but they don’t dominate the overall betting scenes from race-to-race. Besides, when they do the odds value on the other entries will naturally rise. If that 2/1 shot suddenly becomes the favorite it will only win approximately 33% of the time. So what does that tell you?

As far as I’m concerned this game is ALL about the Money, but it’s NOT about just picking Winners. For me It’s about making Winning plays based on the movement of money in all the viewable betting pools. I always enjoy seeing one or two entries getting what most handicappers view as odds-on or even money favorite choices. Yet, while these entries seem to be getting all the action there may be another entry (usually a long shot that doesn’t look very good on paper ). Yet, for some reason its also getting play. It may not appear obvious in the Win pool (which is what everyone is seeing in terms of the odds). Most players seem to only focus on the odds and ignore the fact that there’s lots of money going into other betting pools at the same time. The reason it’s getting play is generally beyond the scope of traditional handicapping by outsiders. Obviously there must be some justification for anyone betting on this entry, unless of course their intent is to just throw their money away. This kind of information when ignored can more often than not be the downfall of those supporting those favorites.
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Old 11-26-2019, 08:27 AM   #30
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Sorry, but I have ......The reason it’s getting play is generally beyond the scope of traditional handicapping by outsiders. Obviously there must be some justification for anyone betting on this entry, unless of course their intent is to just throw their money away. This kind of information when ignored can more often than not be the downfall of those supporting those favorites.
Depends on how close it is to post time. They could be just trying to get the stock up of another entry, then they cancel their bet before the bell.

I've bitten on that cheese several times.
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