It's on! The Official Boycott Keeneland Thread.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

you see, now you got the whole point now, you will get plenty of new trainers that have horses already on the farms all within close proximity of Keeneland. if the guys with all the horses at other tracks don't want to come there it will be not only just fine but a major improvement in the racing there.

with all the money they gave away the racing was more boring than last year and the attendance supports that.

What on earth are you talking about? What new trainers training up at nearby farms? Even WinStar, with their state of the art facility, isn't training horses up to races there. There are basically no horses being trained at farms. There are some being trained over at the Tb Training Center, and that's about it.

You're crazy if you think slashing purses in half (and losing all the graded and prestigious status of its races) will result in larger fields, better racing, and more money for the track.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

Yes it is the same list of all the times any racing venue ever made a choice of trying to compete with other forms of gambling (8% wps, 10% exacta and 12% other exotics and eliminate rebates). The answer is that easy (getting it to work at this late stage-they have already chased away much of their market by now- would take some heavy duty marketing and education). It hasn't happened because racing it unwilling to try. They love there $20 burgers and they don't really care how long the lines are at In and Out, they are going to keep fidgeting the price from $20 on up until they find that sweet spot, which isn't sweet at all since they priced out most of the gambling market.

FF, re your last post to me, for the zillionth time, this is not about me (I love this game and will be playing it until it's very bitter end). This is about watching the best gambling game in existence deteriorate into irrelevance because it's decision makers don't understand that when you lose your monopoly, you can't continue to charge monopoly prices. There way of competing was/is to provide rebates to very big bettors which resulted in the very sharpest players alive taking full advantage. In turn these players have made the pools imbalanced. A big chunk of the pool is by sharps contributing very little to the takeout and a smaller chunk of the pool is by the public, who ends up contributing a lot to the takeout and losing absurd amounts of money until they move onto another gambling game. I even illustrated it above in this very thread. Eventually the sharks will eat up all the fish and they will have to start feeding on themselves. At that point they will leave the game and there will be no game. Now what exactly make you think there is anything sound in the current business model of racing? What makes you think that losing 25%, 30 % even up to 50% on the dollar with PA trifectas is going to motivate anybody new to the game to continue in this game. It is a business model guaranteed to fail.

Ok then, why aren't you boycotting the tracks that give rebates instead?

[cj]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Isn't that sort of a problem in your arguments about lowering takeout?

No, as has been cited here it has worked.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by cj

No, as has been cited here it has worked.

I missed it. Someone listed one pool, and another is crediting HANA for the success of KY downs.

[upthecreek]

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[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Ok then, why aren't you boycotting the tracks that give rebates instead?

I know this is a Keeneland Boycott thread, but as I stated earlier. Boycotting is going to do little for the growth of racing. The only point of it is to stop racing from making a bad model even worse. We as horseplayers (something you have no comprehension of) are in a already rough situation, expecially if we live in state where we cannot get rebates ourselves. So boycotting is not about making racing great again, it is about stopping racing from making itself even worse. As mentioned above this is just about the $20 burger jumping to $20.99 because In and Out is taking up all the market share. To the poster who brought up Red Slime burgers, I am not equating Keeneland to other racetracks, I am equating horse racing to other forms of gambling. I believe Blackjack and craps run at about 2% to 2 1/2% takeout, sports betting is around 4.5 % takeout, I think I have even read that slots even run at 8 or 9 % takeout. I believe fantasy sports are around in the 10% range. Poker I believe is in the neighborhood of 5%.

The advantage racing has is that it is beatable like sports betting and Poker and fantasy sports and Blackjack (for those who can do it and keep playing). The disadvantage is that racing doesn't seem to grasp that it's biggest selling point is that it is legal and beatable and easy to access. If it did it would make sure that everyone with a laptop, ipad or mobile phone who likes to gamble has access to the same competitive rates and the cream will rise to the top, the rest will settle in where they settle, the sharper players will bet more no matter what state they live in, everybody will do better and have more fun and the sport will see exponential growth over time. Then I wake up and I see racing 2017, a shadow of what it used to be when I had to drive for 30 to 45 minutes to play my local track, pay for admission and a Form(even parking way back when), spend the entire day at the track, have to wait in line to make a bet and hope I didn't get shut out and if I was really lucky I could get a decent uncomfortable seat on the weekend, without as much as a thank you or even a smile from any track employee.

As far as boycotting rebates, it can't be done. Anybody who bets serious money needs them to survive in this game. They don't make the rules, they play by the rules. But as many have mentioned, boycotting is done all the time by people who leave the sport, never to come back.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I missed it. Someone listed one pool, and another is crediting HANA for the success of KY downs.

Doesn't sound like you missed it to me. You just aren't connecting the dots. Kentucky Downs has good rates (comparatively, anyway) and they are thriving. Takeout isn't the only reason of course, but it helps. There are a lot of roadblocks in place industry wise that keep takeout drops from succeeding. When some tracks have tried really lower takeouts, other places won't take the signal. It has happened several times.

By the way, I thought you didn't bet? I asked this once before and you ignored it. Do I have the wrong guy? I ask because that would explain why you don't understand this.

[upthecreek]

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[upthecreek]

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[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

I know this is a Keeneland Boycott thread, but as I stated earlier. Boycotting is going to do little for the growth of racing. The only point of it is to stop racing from making a bad model even worse. We as horseplayers (something you have no comprehension of) are in a already rough situation, expecially if we live in state where we cannot get rebates ourselves. So boycotting is not about making racing great again, it is about stopping racing from making itself even worse. As mentioned above this is just about the $20 burger jumping to $20.99 because In and Out is taking up all the market share. To the poster who brought up Red Slime burgers, I am not equating Keeneland to other racetracks, I am equating horse racing to other forms of gambling. I believe Blackjack and craps run at about 2% to 2 1/2% takeout, sports betting is around 4.5 % takeout, I think I have even read that slots even run at 8 or 9 % takeout. I believe fantasy sports are around in the 10% range. Poker I believe is in the neighborhood of 5%.

The advantage racing has is that it is beatable like sports betting and Poker and fantasy sports and Blackjack (for those who can do it and keep playing). The disadvantage is that racing doesn't seem to grasp that it's biggest selling point is that it is legal and beatable and easy to access. If it did it would make sure that everyone with a laptop, ipad or mobile phone who likes to gamble has access to the same competitive rates and the cream will rise to the top, the rest will settle in where they settle, the sharper players will bet more no matter what state they live in, everybody will do better and have more fun and the sport will see exponential growth over time. Then I wake up and I see racing 2017, a shadow of what it used to be when I had to drive for 30 to 45 minutes to play my local track, pay for admission and a Form(even parking way back when), spend the entire day at the track, have to wait in line to make a bet and hope I didn't get shut out and if I was really lucky I could get a decent uncomfortable seat on the weekend, without as much as a thank you or even a smile from any track employee.

As far as boycotting rebates, it can't be done. Anybody who bets serious money needs them to survive in this game. They don't make the rules, they play by the rules. But as many have mentioned, boycotting is done all the time by people who leave the sport, never to come back.

How much do those other forms of gambling pay to ADWs? And what is their overhead?

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by cj

Doesn't sound like you missed it to me. You just aren't connecting the dots. Kentucky Downs has good rates (comparatively, anyway) and they are thriving. Takeout isn't the only reason of course, but it helps. There are a lot of roadblocks in place industry wise that keep takeout drops from succeeding. When some tracks have tried really lower takeouts, other places won't take the signal. It has happened several times.

By the way, I thought you didn't bet? I asked this once before and you ignored it. Do I have the wrong guy? I ask because that would explain why you don't understand this.

I am a self-admitted non-gambler, in the sense that I don't bet what I don't mind losing. How that compares to others here, I have no idea. I bet all the handicappers here aren't whales or do it for a living. Regardless, it doesn't mean I don't understand math, or how businesses work. If anything, it gives me the luxury of not just looking at it for from a gambler's eyes, but from the tracks', owners' and trainers'. I never see you all give a second of thought to those entities.

If KY Downs is all you've got - a track that runs about a week with million dollar daily purses due to their profits from other forms of gambling - then you haven't got much.

So you don't really want to hurt racing, someone said, just slap them on the hand for what you think is a bad decision said without benefit of seeing their books, then why don't you try the opposite? Announce that you will throw your full financial support behind the track who lowers their takeout to the rates of x, x, and x. I mean, if that's really all it takes to make you happy, then you'll make that you ur top betting track, right?

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

How much do those other forms of gambling pay to ADWs? And what is their overhead?

The growth racing would attain by leveling the playing field (so everyone has a chance to make money and not just those getting the biggest rebates) and competing with the other foms of gambling and eliminate the need for a lot of players to bet offshore would enable racing to make a lot more money (net profit) with a lower takeout than it currently does with a higher takeout. It will not happen overnight, but if they stick with it the potential growth is there for the taking. I realize there is risk involved, but I feel like I have a lot more confidence in this industry competing if it was priced properly than those making the key decisions do. That in itself is a crying shame.

One other note, I am getting the feeling that for the first time in our life nationwide legalized sports betting may actually become a reality in my lifetime. Assuming that does happen, wouldn't it make sense for racing to have established itself as a player in the competitive gambling market place rather than the price gouging distant cousin.

Also aren't the 2 of the biggest ADW's both racing owned (Twinspires and Xpressbet). It is not like they are independent middlemen. If racing has a will to make itself competitive, there hands are hardly tied.

[Jeff P]

Five Year Handle Trend at Kentucky Downs:
http://www.playersboycott.org/handleupdate10292017.html

Kentucky Downs has achieved year over year growth for five consecutive years -- more than tripling their handle in that time -- despite losing races to weather -- and despite being forced to cancel Saturday race cards due to weather and run them on weekdays.

Keep in mind that this came about by taking the novel approach of asking a horseplayers association to help them promote a three quarter point drop in exacta takeout back in 2013.

-jp

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[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I am a self-admitted non-gambler...

As a "non-gambler"...you do realize that you contribute nothing of substance to this game...right? And yet...you presume to accuse those of us, who actually help the game along by betting, of being overly critical when we complain about the sorry state that our game currently finds itself in.

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

What on earth are you talking about? What new trainers training up at nearby farms? Even WinStar, with their state of the art facility, isn't training horses up to races there. There are basically no horses being trained at farms. There are some being trained over at the Tb Training Center, and that's about it.

You're crazy if you think slashing purses in half (and losing all the graded and prestigious status of its races) will result in larger fields, better racing, and more money for the track.

do you honestly think a little purse cut is going to stop these guys from coming to Keeneland or other places? this is the sport of kings, the kings are still going to race, but with purse cuts they may not be showing up with 2 or 3 horses in the races giving someone else a chance.