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08-06-2011, 09:18 PM
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: MI
Posts: 6,330
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calling all Workout experts
Do you ignore the 'H' and 'B' designation for handling and breezing? Is it true that West of the Mississippi River they mostly use 'B' while the East they use 'H'. The designations are considered by some to be a few speed points difference as much as a second at some distances. How do you make sense of it?
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"The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the poor, to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
Anatole France
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08-06-2011, 10:11 PM
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#2
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,581
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I ignore them. All i look at is times and who the trainer is.
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08-06-2011, 10:32 PM
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 14,569
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I'm no expert, but.......
Workouts are a very grey area when it comes to handicapping.
The difference between "B" and "H" works cannot really be quantified, or taken as reliable.
Therefore, I take the info on workouts that we read in PPs with a grain of salt.
Yes - they are important.
Works at regular intervals, especially during a layoff, are key to a horse's fitness. Having them at the track where the horse will race next can be a plus. Getting a turf work into a horse due to debut on the lawn is, also, often a positive. There are many variables, and intangibles.
Looking too closely at workouts, though, as they appear on paper, is often a wasted effort.
Times, and the "H" or "B" listings, are less important than frequency, imo.
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08-06-2011, 10:48 PM
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 260
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not a expert, i don't look at B or H, just for gate works.
Here's what i look for in workouts , I like to see 3 or more w/o 6 to 7 days apart,
I like to see a improvement in time from 3rd back, last w/o within 7 days at 5 furlongs i think is the best w/o.
7 furlong w/o in one of last two workouts , under for alw 1.25, claimers 1.26 these hit the board.
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08-06-2011, 11:14 PM
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#5
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 16,915
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Al,
Yes, I use those H, B, and G designations.
Was it you that suggested that workouts would be a good topic for my show? I believe my next show (Sept. 8) workouts will be the topic.
Dave
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08-07-2011, 12:30 AM
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Boston+Ocala
Posts: 23,766
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workouts are the key to all forms of handicapping period. you can have the best numbers money can buy, but if you don't know how the horse is training you are dead meat. of course there are many people that claim they know how to clock horses, but most are pretenders that want to be contenders.
if you are buying a racing form to get the printed workouts, you are only wasting your money. its how the horse works and who the horse works with.
todays example comes in the 3rd race at saratoga, you have the horse CURRENCY SWAP. he is a 2 year old that worked with and beat PROMISING ED who is a 3 year old that happened to win on FRIDAY AUGUST 5. the horse shows up in saratoga today to run against the best when the connections could have waited until next week and ran him against easier in NEW JERSEY without shipping the horse. you take that information and look at all the other horses in the race and see who they trained with. from what i found out, the horses that were based in NEW YORK all trained with other 2 year olds, one of them trained with a good 3 year old, but that horse did not beat the 3 year old. the very same process would hold true for older horses, but most of them hardly ever work. that is why i try to stay away from those types of races because i cannot get a decent line on the prospective horses that i might place a wager on. i don't really know how many people do the same type of work that i do. horses that work good produce good numbers in races. good numbers do not produce good horses.
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08-07-2011, 01:54 AM
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#7
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SoCal Enthusiast
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapperAl
Is it true that West of the Mississippi River they mostly use 'B' while the East they use 'H'.
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Are you sure it's not the other way around? I don't see many breezing workouts on the SoCal circuit but I do remember seeing them when I have wagered on the Triple Crown races this year.
Anyhow, I basically just look at the times and give a little extra credit to a work out of the gate. I really only consider work times for the maiden races though...
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08-07-2011, 07:52 AM
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 737
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not even close to a expert
Horse that have three gate wks or more.I throw out as probably haveing gate problem.Also think most wks in east are brezzing and west handily.A gate wk is probably 1 sec faster and i subtract that from number shown in form.And consider a brezz wk better than a handily as brezzing is all horse on his own and handily he gets urgeing.
And also take in considerateion spaceing.And how he wks bef and aft race
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08-07-2011, 09:40 AM
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HIT
Horse that have three gate wks or more.I throw out as probably haveing gate problem.Also think most wks in east are brezzing and west handily.A gate wk is probably 1 sec faster and i subtract that from number shown in form.And consider a brezz wk better than a handily as brezzing is all horse on his own and handily he gets urgeing.
And also take in considerateion spaceing.And how he wks bef and aft race
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Wouldn't you subtract from a gate work? A Gate standing start, other works are timed from pole to pole with a running start?
__________________
Every time you are tempted to react in the same old way, ask if you want to be a prisoner of the past or a pioneer of the future.
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08-07-2011, 09:54 AM
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamboguy
todays example comes in the 3rd race at saratoga, you have the horse CURRENCY SWAP. he is a 2 year old that worked with and beat PROMISING ED who is a 3 year old that happened to win on FRIDAY AUGUST 5. the horse shows up in saratoga today to run against the best when the connections could have waited until next week and ran him against easier in NEW JERSEY without shipping the horse. you take that information and look at all the other horses in the race and see who they trained with. from what i found out, the horses that were based in NEW YORK all trained with other 2 year olds, one of them trained with a good 3 year old, but that horse did not beat the 3 year old. the very same process would hold true for older horses, but most of them hardly ever work. that is why i try to stay away from those types of races because i cannot get a decent line on the prospective horses that i might place a wager on. i don't really know how many people do the same type of work that i do. horses that work good produce good numbers in races. good numbers do not produce good horses.
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Didn't do the same amount of work as you did only noticed that the horse was throwing a few bullets at MTH and definitely could have found a race there instead of shipping. The horse is a FLA bred so was not coming up for a NY-bred MSW...
The other angle that I thought might be interesting is that Klaravich is a big outfit in NY/NJ - maybe they wanted the horse up in SAR for the day but still didn't make that much sense to ship up unless he was well meant.
It was not a prime win wager as I like Kenneally 1sters too - but they did finish 1-2; so took out a net of 8.9 odds points from the race
Last edited by wonatthewire1; 08-07-2011 at 09:58 AM.
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08-07-2011, 10:34 AM
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Boston+Ocala
Posts: 23,766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wonatthewire1
Didn't do the same amount of work as you did only noticed that the horse was throwing a few bullets at MTH and definitely could have found a race there instead of shipping. The horse is a FLA bred so was not coming up for a NY-bred MSW...
The other angle that I thought might be interesting is that Klaravich is a big outfit in NY/NJ - maybe they wanted the horse up in SAR for the day but still didn't make that much sense to ship up unless he was well meant.
It was not a prime win wager as I like Kenneally 1sters too - but they did finish 1-2; so took out a net of 8.9 odds points from the race
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i happened to have caught the daily double from the prior race and got lucky with it even though the payoff was low,i got most of the money, but i did play a rundown in trifecta's with dutrow and got lucky there catching eddie kinnealy in the middle. the kentucky horses have not been that great this year, while as you know monmouth has been pretty deep and demanding
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08-07-2011, 12:58 PM
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: MI
Posts: 6,330
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Dave,
Sign me up if I'm not already on your list.
Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz
Al,
Yes, I use those H, B, and G designations.
Was it you that suggested that workouts would be a good topic for my show? I believe my next show (Sept. 8) workouts will be the topic.
Dave
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__________________
"The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the poor, to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
Anatole France
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08-07-2011, 07:09 PM
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,034
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Doesn't matter at all because they don't tell you the weight of the exercise rider. Some weigh 10+lbs more than others. From experience, I know some carry weights in the saddles while working out. NONE of this is told in the racing form or post parade mags.
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08-07-2011, 07:21 PM
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzipi
Doesn't matter at all because they don't tell you the weight of the exercise rider. Some weigh 10+lbs more than others. From experience, I know some carry weights in the saddles while working out. NONE of this is told in the racing form or post parade mags.
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This is one reason I consider works worthless. Here are a few more. 1)Is it the right horse? It's not like they are identified before working. 2)Was the time given on the gallop out or at the pole? You never know. 3)Did the horse work in company? 4)Was the horse given Lasix for the work?
Unless you are there clocking yourself or suscribe to a reliable workout service you are almost completely in the dark. I'd imagine the better quality the track the more reliable the works are. Still too many unknown variables for me.
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08-07-2011, 09:37 PM
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#15
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamboguy
workouts are the key to all forms of handicapping period.
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This is utterly absurd.
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