60 minutes to profile big time sports bettor

[Pace Cap'n]

For anyone who would like to read about the original Computer Group, and B. Walters involvement in it, here is a seriously l-o-n-g article...

www.offshorebettor.com/images/COMPUTER.htm

"The men and women of the Computer Group had been pioneers in their field. All the Computer Group did, apparently, was wager money on college football and basketball games, but for five hysterical years they did it better than anyone else ever had. It was almost as if they had invented junk bonds. Every season the cash arrived by the millions, all because their computer told them which teams should be favored to win everything from the mammoth Ohio State-Michigan football game to the basket-ball game pitting Monmouth against Fairleigh Dickinson. The Computer Group did not fix games. It simply understood them."

[lansdale]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

I saw a card counter banned playing at $5 table. It is very hard to stay below the radar. Although I will say that the higher the stakes, the more the scrutiny.

Robert,

I don't know what your experience is, but I've played as a solo counter, worked with a spotter, and also with small teams over the course of three decades.

What you mean by 'banned', I'm not sure, but there are several layers of countermeasures that casinos will typically take before they 86 or 'trespass' a counter. Since the stakes were so small in the incident you describe, my guess is that it might have involved cheating or that this player might simply have been an undesirable from the casino's perspective. Generally speaking, most casinos have no interest in anyone who's playing less than black, regardless of whether they're winning or losing. Although, with some smaller casinos, green is enough to provoke scrutiny.

How do most pro players stay under the radar? By playing no more than an hour in any one casino. This amount of time won't give the casino definitive evidence on whether the player is a skilled counter, and they don't want to risk losing a 'civilian' by mistaking one for a counter. Of course, pit personnel being what they are, this still happens, and the stupidity through which the casino thus loses money is a source of vast amusement to counters.

There seems to be a certain amount of misinformation here on the difficulty of making money counting, but I can guarantee you it's a vastly easier way to make money than horserace handicapping, though not nearly as much fun. As you probably realize, this is true in spades for poker. I don't know if you saw the film '21', but if you can ignore the Hollywood nonsense about round-the-clock strippers and constant partying, the demonstration of the mechanics of the way a count team works were roughly accurate. And remember, these guys did take millions of dollars out of the casinos over the years.

Cheers,

lansdale

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by lansdale

Robert,

I don't know what your experience is, but I've played as a solo counter, worked with a spotter, and also with small teams over the course of three decades.

What you mean by 'banned', I'm not sure, but there are several layers of countermeasures that casinos will typically take before they 86 or 'trespass' a counter. Since the stakes were so small in the incident you describe, my guess is that it might have involved cheating or that this player might simply have been an undesirable from the casino's perspective. Generally speaking, most casinos have no interest in anyone who's playing less than black, regardless of whether they're winning or losing. Although, with some smaller casinos, green is enough to provoke scrutiny.

How do most pro players stay under the radar? By playing no more than an hour in any one casino. This amount of time won't give the casino definitive evidence on whether the player is a skilled counter, and they don't want to risk losing a 'civilian' by mistaking one for a counter. Of course, pit personnel being what they are, this still happens, and the stupidity through which the casino thus loses money is a source of vast amusement to counters.

There seems to be a certain amount of misinformation here on the difficulty of making money counting, but I can guarantee you it's a vastly easier way to make money than horserace handicapping, though not nearly as much fun. As you probably realize, this is true in spades for poker. I don't know if you saw the film '21', but if you can ignore the Hollywood nonsense about round-the-clock strippers and constant partying, the demonstration of the mechanics of the way a count team works were roughly accurate. And remember, these guys did take millions of dollars out of the casinos over the years.

Cheers,

lansdale

Robert mentioned that the counter was playing at the $5 tables...he didn't say that he was betting $5 chips.

Some of these counters who were barred were downright ridiculous...they would sit at the $5 tables, so they could bet the absolute minimum when the deck was unfavorable...and then they would increase their wagers to very suspicious levels, when the odds turned in their favor.

They never seemed to realize that longevity in the game was easily as important as card-counting expertise...

[lansdale]

Hi Thaskolos,

Players such as you describe are not professional or even serious amateur players. Still, I stand by my words - people playing at low level simply do not get barred.

Cheers,

lansdale

[David-LV]

Originally Posted by swetyejohn

I had the same question.

The M Race & Sports Book will let you bet all you want without any problem.

_________
David-LV

[Robert Goren]

I played blackjack part time for for about 6 years. There is nothing easy about. The game in which the player was ban was in a Iowa casino in about 1997-1998. My memory fails as to which one. I didn't think he was part of a team. For the record I wasn't either. I always thought that being part of a team was the easiest way to get caught, but I could be wrong. Back to the point, Casinos don't like lose money to anyone who they think has an edge. It easier to stay under the radar if you are small time player, but they aren't totally ignoring them either.

[teddy]

Originally Posted by sonnyp

very little chance this really happened

This reminds me of a time when I was part of a team that hit the indian casinos in the smokey mtns. We had one bear watching the pit while i was counting, only when the time was right we would lay down the big cache. Mostly we played black and some brown...black bears seem to have better eyes and they went unnoticed by the public more. The unpredictability of the browns made us steer clear of them. As you guessed it ... even after keeping our bets low we got busted and thrown out just for being bears... go figure. TRUE STORY

[Zman179]

Originally Posted by cj

Was this around the time one of the top jocks (Hansen?) mysteriously disappeared?

Yup, Ron Hansen was killed in 1994.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Originally Posted by David-LV

The M Race & Sports Book will let you bet all you want without any problem.

_________
David-LV

Are you serious?

Maybe all you want but not all what some people want.

Go over today, act like you have the money, go to the window and call out $20K on either NBA game tonight or call out $50K on one of the playoff games this weekend.

Maybe, and I stress maybe, on game day, they might take $50K...but only if they need money on the side you want.

Much lower will get rejected but those numbers might get them to call security over and escort you out.

If you did this at any other property you would get escorted out for sure.

[sonnyp]

Originally Posted by David-LV

The M Race & Sports Book will let you bet all you want without any problem.

_________
David-LV

forget walters, the M is the "new" gathering place for "beaver" and his crew. fresh out of jail and firing $100,000 + per day to get house Q's.

how long this time ?

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by sonnyp

forget walters, the M is the "new" gathering place for "beaver" and his crew. fresh out of jail and firing $100,000 + per day to get house Q's.

how long this time ?

jelinsky must be the only one getting down on house Q's in that joint?

does this mean that he is not welcome at the palms any longer?

[sonnyp]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

jelinsky must be the only one getting down on house Q's in that joint?

does this mean that he is not welcome at the palms any longer?

what would you think ?

[BlueShoe]

Originally Posted by sonnyp

this government's position on gambling is a travesty.

Speaking of which, anyone up to date on federal and Nevada tax reporting requirements and casino procedures? The feds insist that any transactions of over 10 thousand is a reportable event. Have been told that the casinos often want to know who you are even when you cash in as little as 5 or even 3 thousand. This would seem to be more of a problem for horseplayers that hit a monster super, pick 3, or pick 4 rather than for sports or table games players.

[sonnyp]

Originally Posted by BlueShoe

Speaking of which, anyone up to date on federal and Nevada tax reporting requirements and casino procedures? The feds insist that any transactions of over 10 thousand is a reportable event. Have been told that the casinos often want to know who you are even when you cash in as little as 5 or even 3 thousand. This would seem to be more of a problem for horseplayers that hit a monster super, pick 3, or pick 4 rather than for sports or table games players.

say you start betting on the east coast tracks in the morning and you hang around all day and finish up with the meadowlands at night.......if and when your aggrigate play hits $3000 they're going to start asking questions.

if you cash for $3000......same thing even if it just gets you even for earlier losses.

nice, huh ?

[Dave Schwartz]

The number I am told is $5,000 per day and the casinos (at least in Reno) will bend over backwards to NOT track you if you don't wish to be tracked.

That means if you were betting a lot of races at (say) $20-$50 at a time, they might not notice how much you have bet cumulatively. However, if you did this every day you for an extended period WILL be noticed.


Dave