Religious

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

He was acknowledging his personal guilt and the innocence of Jesus. Maybe that is enough to avoid death of the soul?

I don't know...is it?

From my own bible study I had gotten the impression that the soul-saving bar was set a little higher.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I don't know...is it?

From my own bible study I had gotten the impression that the soul-saving bar was set a little higher.

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; Romans 10:9

Confessing with your mouth is not that high of a standard. Believing in the Resurrection takes lots of faith. All in all it is not a high standard.

What is interesting I was having this same conversation with a few of my friends today.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; Romans 10:9

Confessing with your mouth is not that high of a standard. Believing in the Resurrection takes lots of faith. All in all it is not a high standard.

What is interesting I was having this same conversation with a few of my friends today.

I keep remembering Jesus' quote that the path to heaven is very narrow, and the gate very small...so very few travel and enter into it. If all it took was words of mouth and a belief in the resurrection...then, instead of the very few...there would be a STAMPEDE charging toward heaven's door. I know this because virtually ALL the Christians that I know confess their sins verbally...and they all believe in the resurrection. So, none would be excluded from the eternal life...and the "few are chosen" reference would not apply.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

What claims Mr. Senile? I haven't made any.



Maybe you're not as knowledgeable as I thought you were about the Bible. Consider these 2 direct contradictions after Christ's resurrection from the tomb:


Matthew 28:8

So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples.

Mark 16:8

Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

In Mathew the women were afraid but filled with joy and went to tell the disciples. In Mark they were only afraid and told no one.

This is just one example of many.

Yeah...okay... Tell ya what: I'll give you the same the number of swings that I have given to nearly everyone else. You have two more to go after this, since you just swung at air with this "contradiction".

Mark's gospel gives the most abbreviated post-resurrection information. The most sparse in details.

The three women left Jerusalem well before daybreak. They arrived at the empty tomb right at daybreak. The tip of the sun was probably just breaking over the horizon. As you probably know the earliest MSS. don't have vv. 9-19, so we'll just stop the chapter at v.8.

Mark 16:8
8 And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had gripped them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.
NASB

Since it was now full fledged sunrise by the time they left and the trip from the tomb to Jerusalem was probably about 2 hours long. By this time, people were waking up and traveling the roads. So what the text is saying is that as they traveled the road -- as they were heading back -- they didn't stop to broadcast the great news to anyone along the road. Also, they weren't going back to Jerusalem. They were going to report their finding to the apostles in Galilee, which would have been an even longer trip.

Matthew 28, providing more details, tells us that they encountered Jesus on the way. And Jesus told them the same thing the lead angel at the tomb did: Go and report this to my disciples who are staying in Galilee.

Luke 24 tells us that the women did indeed tell the disciples in Galilee what they saw at the empty tomb. And of course, the disciples probably ridiculed the women because Luke tells us that the disciples thought their story was "nonsense" and that "they would not believe them".

So, all the difficulties with these accounts are due to you reading your presuppositions into Mark's account. Mark doesn't say that the women didn't tell the disciples as they were commanded to do -- twice, I might add. The account makes a generalized statement that the women told no one. And they didn't on their trip back Galilee. Period.

Again, people rose early back in those days to go about their chores. Mark, in all probability, is telling us is that the women didn't stop to tell anyone anything who they seen or met on their trip to Galilee. And for all we know, they could have bumped into people they knew. But if so, they said nothing. This bit of information, by the way, was to tell readers that Jesus only wanted to let his disciples know about his resurrection. Mark is assuring his readers that no outsiders knew about Christ's resurrection. All post-resurrection accounts throughout the NT are consistent on this point: Christ revealed himself only to his people.

Even the context of the very passage bears this out. It's easy to see that Mark was saying that the women fleeing the tomb -- because they were in a HURRY -- said nothing to anyone. People in a rush are not likely to stop to tell anyone very much, are they? These gals were on a mission to get back to the disciples ASAP to share their news! And what stupendous news it was! The best news in human history!

And as you know our biggest disagreement is the two versions of the location of the Kingdom of Heaven. One is "within" the other is external "in our midst".

Not any longer "in our midst" -- only within by the Holy
Spirit and the coming of the physical kingdom.

For someone like you who puts his faith in a book filled with contradictions and editing, to try to pass that off as your spiritual foundation is a joke. Don't forget you are real flesh and blood, not paper and ink. Look within the holy tabernacle that is your body. God gave you that. You could not exist if you were made out of paper, ink and words.

You're not making sense. My spiritual foundation is Christ -- "the solid Rock upon which I stand. Everything else is sinking sand."

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; Romans 10:9

Confessing with your mouth is not that high of a standard. Believing in the Resurrection takes lots of faith. All in all it is not a high standard.

What is interesting I was having this same conversation with a few of my friends today.

Part of the Easy Believism crowd, are you? Read LK 14:25-35.

Also, no one can even confess Christ (and really mean in their heart) apart from the Holy Spirit. The standard is not high, but impossible one for those in the flesh to attain.

Boxcar

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I keep remembering Jesus' quote that the path to heaven is very narrow, and the gate very small...so very few travel and enter into it. If all it took was words of mouth and a belief in the resurrection...then, instead of the very few...there would be a STAMPEDE charging toward heaven's door. I know this because virtually ALL the Christians that I know confess their sins verbally...and they all believe in the resurrection. So, none would be excluded from the eternal life...and the "few are chosen" reference would not apply.

27 But He said, “The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.” Luke 18:27

‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ Acts 2:21

Intriguing.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

27 But He said, “The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.” Luke 18:27

‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ Acts 2:21

Intriguing.

You say "intriguing"...and I say "contradicting".

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You see, Boxcar...THERE is your intellectual dishonesty RIGHT THERE! You say the "repentant thief"...when you know full well that no repentance at all took place in that scenario. All this "repentant thief" ever did was acknowledge the fact that his own crucifixion was justified, whereas Jesus was undeserving of his cruel fate. "Repentance" means that a man is sorry for the wrong(s) that he has committed, and wishes to somehow atone for his mistake(s). No-where did this "repentant thief" express such an emotion...and you know that. Unless you consider his request that Jesus remember him when he gets to his heavenly kingdom as some sort of "repentance"...which, of course, it is not.

And so I ask:

Is that all one has to do in order to secure the "eternal life"? All one has to do is admit his own guilt...while acknowledging the innocence of another? No remorse...no repentance...and no plea for forgiveness are necessary?

Your religion is sending some confusing signals...

The confusing signals you're hearing or seeing are in your own mind. Of course, one thief repented. Did he not change his mind about who Christ really was when he asked Jesus to remember him today when he comes into his kingdom? He finally came to his senses and realized, through Jesus' dying testimony, who this man really was who was hanging next to him. As did the Roman soldier at the foot of the cross. The thief went from reviler to one asking for mercy. That's quite a change in my book. Repentance is a change of mind or heart expressed through actions. In this case, the actions were the thief's words.

Boxcar

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You say "intriguing"...and I say "contradicting".

Remember, the early Christians believed in different levels of heaven.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I don't know...is it?

From my own bible study I had gotten the impression that the soul-saving bar was set a little higher.

Faith and Repentance -- that's the bar. Each is on the opposite side of the same coin. But neither can occur without God's effectual grace.

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Faith and Repentance -- that's the bar. Each is on the opposite side of the same coin. But neither can occur without God's effectual grace.

Boxcar

How do you know, no matter how much you Repent and have Faith, that God will give you Grace?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

How do you know , no matter how much you Repent and have Faith, that God will give you Grace?

Err...grace precedes faith and repentance. One comes to saving faith BY grace (Eph 2:8-9). People are saved BY grace through faith -- and even the faith is not of ourselves.

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Err...grace precedes faith and repentance. One comes to saving faith BY grace (Eph 2:8-9). People are saved BY grace through faith -- and even the faith is not of ourselves.

Boxcar

But how do YOU Know God will give YOU Grace?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And in my M-W Collegiate Thesaurus compassion is synonymous with PITY, commiseration, rue, ruth, sympathy.

And love is synonymous with amorousness, amour, passion.

If love and compassion were synonymous then when Jesus told us what the greatest commandment of all was, by your twisted definitions, people would have compassion on God since the command was to love Him above all else.

You pick and choose definitions from dictionaries that are favorable to you. Try looking up the definition of compassion and you will find some which use love as a synonym.

The etymology of "compassion" is Latin, meaning "co-suffering." Compassion commonly gives rise to an active desire to alleviate anther's suffering. The English noun compassion, meaning to "love together with", comes from Latin.

When you get stuck in word games you miss the larger truths And just as you cherry pick definitions from dictionaries, you do the same with biblical passages. Compassion and love are difficult to separate.

2 Corinthians 1:3-7 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves received from God. For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows. If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer. And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort."

Matthew 22:36-40King James Version (KJV)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
King James Version (KJV)

Your mistake is ignoring 40. Verse 40 describes and summarizes details of the cornerstone of Christianity. Without compassion for others, as you have demonstrated over and over gain-frequently-you qualify for grinch-dom.

[hcap]

Matthew 22:36-40King James Version (KJV)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
King James Version (KJV)

I would like to mention that the word "holy" has an origin that is complex.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Holy

Etymology

The origin of the word "holy" comes from the eleventh century Old High German hulis and Old English holegn meaning "Holly" as in Holly Tree, considered a sacred plant to both pre-Christian Celtic and Roman worship. The word hulis originates from an even older proto-Germanic word khuli a shortened derivation of the ancient Gaelic cuilieann, both meaning Holly. The distinction of the word holy appeared around the thirteenth century with the Old English word hālig (derived from hāl meaning health, happiness and wholeness.) As “wholeness,” holiness may be taken to indicate a state of religious completeness or perfection.

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind".....refers to what we must do in a rather straightforward way. We must mend the many aspects of ourselves into a more unified state of being.

Lower Self:The Ten Thousand I`s

The lower self is a collection of attitudes, dreams, and mechanical habits that dwell within a man. There is not an unchangeable ‘I’ that is always the same. Rather, a man's many thoughts, emotions and sensations are his ‘many I`s’, which are traditionally numbered as ten thousand. As the ten thousand I's randomly assert themselves, each one mistakenly takes itself to be 'real I', and moreover, constantly interferes with the effort to simply Be Present. Jesus Christ said, "Thine enemies shall be they of your own household."

Gurdjieff: Man is a plurality. Man's name is legion.

Love is the unifying principle. And repeats on two levels. ( as above, so below ). Within ones own being towards what we may symbolize within as "God", and externally among our fellow humans. Buddhists say sentient beings. Compassion and love are both huge concepts, both meaning much more than just the emotional connotations. However the heart is a very powerful means of perceiving both. But a more esoteric view is that one must feel and think it simultaneously with all the wholeness one can muster. Be here now is the operative 20-21st century phrase. IMO, that is why those two commandments are the top of the list and after all these years and in spite of distorted misunderstandings and loss of original context and misconstrued mistranslations, the deeper meanings of Judaism and Christianity may be found.

But it is rarely found in the letter of the law.