Run up distances

[proximity]

Originally Posted by Light

Why do the run up distances change for the same distance,surface,track? For example the 5th at Belmont on 5/31, a 6f dirt race, shows a run up of 64 feet. But the 2nd race at Belmont on 5/30, also a 6f dirt race, shows a run up of only 40 feet.

any track doing this should drop straight to the bottom of the hana rankings.

this is criminal. main track races should always start at the same spot. no exceptions.

[andymays]

Originally Posted by proximity

any track doing this should drop straight to the bottom of the hana rankings.

this is criminal. main track races should always start at the same spot. no exceptions.

At Santa Anita the run up for 1 mile is way longer than the run up for 1 1/16(see one of my earlier posts) because it gives the Horses a longer run into the turn thereby minimizing the disadvantage of the outside post postions.

Knowing the run ups at your local tracks is a big advantage. Anyone who can create or has created a pace program that accurately takes run ups into account, especially the turf rail changes every week, would do very well. Run ups are a significant handicapping factor on dirt surfaces. Not so much on synthetic surfaces because of the slower pace!

[cj]

At Saratoga a few years ago, I asked the track super personally why the run up changes from day to day, and even race to race. He had no idea and said I had to asked the gate crew.

[andymays]

Originally Posted by cj

At Saratoga a few years ago, I asked the track super personally why the run up changes from day to day, and even race to race. He had no idea and said I had to asked the gate crew.

I've gone through that with several Tracks. Many of the people I contact and talk to don't know what I'm talking about when I ask. It would be nice for someone to post all the run ups for every major Track. For example I know the run up for 6 furlongs at Pimlico is very short but when I tried to find out nobody would respond. Santa Anita was one of a few that responded.

[Tom]

If you knew the distance of one race was, say 50 feet longer than another, how would you adjust your race times? Just 1c, both 1c and 2c, or all the times? How much?

I know it will have an effect, but how do you quantify it?

[proximity]

Originally Posted by andymays

At Santa Anita the run up for 1 mile is way longer than the run up for 1 1/16......

i'm fine with this but light's post indicated that belmont was changing the runups for main track races at the same distance. and this should NEVER happen.....

[andymays]

Originally Posted by proximity

i'm fine with this but light's post indicated that belmont was changing the runups for main track races at the same distance. and this should NEVER happen.....

I don't think the changes are drastic but maybe I'm wrong. I know they can't put the gate in the same exact spot every time but it should'nt be more than 5 or 10 feet off. They may do it on the turf courses because of the weight of the gate and not wanting to create a depression in the course. But your right it shouldn't happen often or for great distances!

[andymays]

Originally Posted by Tom

If you knew the distance of one race was, say 50 feet longer than another, how would you adjust your race times? Just 1c, both 1c and 2c, or all the times? How much?

I know it will have an effect, but how do you quantify it?

From playing Santa Anita for years I would say that the extra 102 feet that they have to run up on a mile vs. 1 1/16 would be about 2/5 of a second difference.

There are many other factors like post position and watching the video of the break of the last few races (how the Jock "sent" or didn't "send") to determine the probable pace of a particular Horse in todays race.

[proximity]

Originally Posted by Tom

If you knew the distance of one race was, say 50 feet longer than another, how would you adjust your race times? Just 1c, both 1c and 2c, or all the times? How much?

I know it will have an effect, but how do you quantify it?

not sure there would be any consistency here, at least not in trying to use the published times. gate timers like len ragozin may have a formula that works though.

[Cratos]

Originally Posted by andymays

I don't think the changes are drastic but maybe I'm wrong. I know they can't put the gate in the same exact spot every time but it should'nt be more than 5 or 10 feet off. They may do it on the turf courses because of the weight of the gate and not wanting to create a depression in the course. But your right it shouldn't happen often or for great distances!

Yes they can and yes they should. The track can put position markers on each side on the track at a standard distance from the start timing light for each race distance.

At the beginning of each race when the gate is rolled into position, it would be positioned such that a permanent feature on the gate is always inline with the markers.

This is a simple inexpensive, but fairly accurate way of maintaining the same run-up distance for each race distance.

[andymays]

Originally Posted by Cratos

Yes they can and yes they should. The track can put position markers on each side on the track at a standard distance from the start timing light for each race distance.

At the beginning of each race when the gate is rolled into position, it would be positioned such that a permanent feature on the gate is always inline with the markers.

This is a simple inexpensive, but fairly accurate way of maintaining the same run-up distance for each race distance.

Do we know which Tracks do what you suggest and which don't?

This seems to be a much bigger issue than most Horsplayers realize.

[Tom]

At FL, I've seen the gate vary by an entire pole for 1m70 races - because I was sitting on a bench directly in line with the gate for both races, and one of them, I had a clear view of the front off to my left.

[andymays]

Originally Posted by Tom

At FL, I've seen the gate vary by an entire pole for 1m70 races - because I was sitting on a bench directly in line with the gate for both races, and one of them, I had a clear view of the front off to my left.

Racetracks that do this stuff should be called out. I can understand 5 feet or so off but when it gets to 20 feet or more then there's no point in timing a race.

If I were you I would take the time to make detailed notes when this is done and exploit the situation to your advantage. If they're doing it as much as you say on a regular basis then there is a lot of money to be made.

[rwwupl]

Originally Posted by andymays

I know many on this Forum use sophisticated pace figures. Santa Anita is one of the Tracks that has many different run up distances. Many Tracks I ask won't even give them out and some don't really know.

The differences between 7f and 61/2 on dirt are big and the mile vs. mile and one sixteenth are big..
6 1/2 Furlongs 78 feet and 7 Furlongs 28 feet

1 Mile 172 feet and 1 1/16 Miles 70 feet


My questions are:

Do most Horseplayers that use pace figures know these run up distances?

And are these run ups caluculated into your programs (especially when the rails are out on the turf course)?

Andy,

Thanks to you,Santa Anita and their longtime Linemaker and Timer Jeff Tufts for bringing a wealth of information to this informative thread.

I have known "Pace and Time" handicappers who have no clue to what they were dealing with run up differences.

Thanks for the effort to bring this to light for many.

[FenceBored]

Ok, stupid question time.

The run-up is not included in the distance of the race, right? A 6f with 24ft run up is actually 6f and 24 ft with a timed distance of 6f.

If so, wouldn't that mean that a 1mile 40yd race at a track with a less than 50 ft run-up at that distance is actually shorter gate to wire than a 1 mile race with 172 ft run-up at Santa Anita, even though the timed distance is longer?