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Old 03-14-2018, 01:03 PM   #5746
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?Apparently genesis is incomplete. Your teeny tiny god is not through destroying creation and re-making it on the quantum level.

I think your 17th century world view can not deal with that. Unless you ignore the quantum level.

Oh I forgot, that is exactly what you do!!!

Duh!
And what you do is is raise straw man arguments to detract.
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:18 AM   #5747
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No, premise begs the question. In atheistic materialism, it is implicitly understood that the cause for a finite universe must be natural, which precludes any possibility for a transcendent (supernatural) cause. (In other words the "crime" took place "inside the room , not outside of it.) Therefore, the the natural cause must be by, in or of the universe (i.e. the room) itself. Ergo, the universe caused itself.
What it comes down to is, after all my hard work, you still do not understand logic ...

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And while the late Prof. Hawking and Mr. Penrose don't have any answers for the origin of the universe, you, conversely, have insisted that the universe is eternal. Have you, too, changed your mind?
... and you refuse to accept "we don't know yet" as an answer to a scientific question. You worship the god of the gaps.
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:35 AM   #5748
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And what you do is is raise straw man arguments to detract.
What straw men? Sub atomic physics?
Remember the cold war? Do you deny 2 of the world's greatest nuclear powers stockpiled straw men? Or that nuclear power plants do not exist?
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:42 AM   #5749
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What it comes down to is, after all my hard work, you still do not understand logic ...

... and you refuse to accept "we don't know yet" as an answer to a scientific question. You worship the god of the gaps.
See how duplicitous you are! You have been touting an eternal universal for a long time now on this thread and the old one -- as though YOU KNEW something. Now...you don't know? You don't know because your atheistic "science genius" doesn't know? You can't think for yourself? You have to march lock-step with Hawking?

So...which of my premises in 5736 is invalid? Number 2? Really? The universe did not "pick itself up by its own bootstraps" to cause itself? The cause for the universe's existence is not natural, i.e. within, by and of itself? Now you subscribe to supernaturalism, do you, which says the cause of the universe is "outside the room" -- outside itself -- a transcendent cause?

Or do you now subscribe to the theory of panspermia to account for the origin of the universe since you have abandoned the theory of an infinite universe?
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:52 AM   #5750
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What straw men? Sub atomic physics?
Remember the cold war? Do you deny 2 of the world's greatest nuclear powers stockpiled straw men? Or that nuclear power plants do not exist?
Your stupid non-sequiturs! Now you're going to tell us that the universe is constantly popping in and out of existence, are you?

For crying out loud, you wanna-be science genius, you can't tell us what the termination of the arrow of time is. Nor can you tell us how it's possible that we can't know what the Future holds even though, according to you, it flows from the Past in which we have all knowledge.

You're a pathetic windbag, 'cap. Always spitting into strong headwinds!
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Old 03-15-2018, 09:57 AM   #5751
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Your stupid non-sequiturs! Now you're going to tell us that the universe is constantly popping in and out of existence, are you?

For crying out loud, you wanna-be science genius, you can't tell us what the termination of the arrow of time is. Nor can you tell us how it's possible that we can't know what the Future holds even though, according to you, it flows from the Past in which we have all knowledge.

You're a pathetic windbag, 'cap. Always spitting into strong headwinds!
What don't you understand about the quantum level uncertainty principle is that the same workings of the the Casimir Effect, the forces at play in the vacuum in space, as it is viewed in quantum theory. Quantum physics uses E=MC^2 on the sub atomic level

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In March 1905 , Einstein created the quantum theory of light, the idea that light exists as tiny packets, or particles, which he called photons. Alongside Max Planck's work on quanta of heat Einstein proposed one of the most shocking idea in twentieth century physics: we live in a quantum universe, one built out of tiny, discrete chunks of energy and matter.

Next, in April and May, Einstein published two papers. In one he invented a new method of counting and determining the size of the atoms or molecules in a given space and in the other he explains the phenomenon of Brownian motion. The net result was a proof that atoms actually exist - still an issue at that time - and the end to a millennia-old debate on the fundamental nature of the chemical elements.

Einstein wasn't finished yet. Later in 1905 came an extension of special relativity in which Einstein proved that energy and matter are linked in the most famous relationship in physics:
E=mc2. (The energy content of a body is equal to the mass of the body times the speed of light squared).
This equation predicted an evolution of energy roughly a million times more efficient than that obtained by ordinary physiochemical means. At first, even Einstein did not grasp the full implications of his formula, but even then he suggested that the heat produced by radium could mark the conversion of tiny amounts of the mass of the radium salts into energy.
Nuclear fission of atomic bombs and power plants requires understanding the conversion of parts of particles on the sub atomic level to energy. Ignorance of the laws of Quantum physics, does not bode well for adherents of 17th century science

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Old 03-15-2018, 10:43 AM   #5752
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What don't you understand about the quantum level uncertainty principle is that the same workings of the the Casimir Effect, the forces at play in the vacuum in space, as it is viewed in quantum theory. Quantum physics uses E=MC^2 on the sub atomic level



Nuclear fission of atomic bombs and power plants requires understanding the conversion of parts of particles on the sub atomic level to energy. Ignorance of the laws of Quantum physics, does not bode well for adherents of 17th century science
An Einstein, you ain't. So, tell us what does this have to with the origin of a finite universe in the worldview of atheistic naturalism.
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Old 03-15-2018, 11:45 AM   #5753
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An Einstein, you ain't. So, tell us what does this have to with the origin of a finite universe in the worldview of atheistic naturalism.
Ther specifics.....
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The Universe, therefore, had to have existed and not existed at the same time in the same sense in order to cause itself to change from a state of non-existence to a state of existence.
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Must I tell you again about the uncertainty principle and how it allows virtual particles to pop in and out of existence?[/I]And once again about the Casimir effect, a small attractive force that acts between two close parallel uncharged conducting plates. It is due to quantum vacuum fluctuations of the electromagnetic field. The effect was predicted by the Dutch physicist Hendrick Casimir in 1948.
Once again the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle states things can exist and not exist at the same time, contrary to 17th century physics. However we can not know precisely which parts of existence do not exist and which do. In the quantum fluctuation (or vacuum state fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point in space. A quantum fluctuation is the temporary appearance of energetic particles out of empty space, as allowed by the uncertainty principle. The uncertainty principle states that for a pair of conjugate variables such as position/momentum or energy/time, it is impossible to have a precisely determined value of each member of the pair at the same time. For example, a particle pair can pop out of the vacuum during a very short time interval.

This allows the creation of particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles. So 1/2 the universe may exist and the other 1/2 may not. We are not able to differentiate exactly

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Old 03-15-2018, 12:08 PM   #5754
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Ther specifics.....
Once again the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle states things can exist and not exist at the same time, contrary to 17th century physics. However we can not know precisely which parts of existence do not exist and which do. In the quantum fluctuation (or vacuum state fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point in space. A quantum fluctuation is the temporary appearance of energetic particles out of empty space, as allowed by the uncertainty principle. The uncertainty principle states that for a pair of conjugate variables such as position/momentum or energy/time, it is impossible to have a precisely determined value of each member of the pair at the same time. For example, a particle pair can pop out of the vacuum during a very short time interval.

This allows the creation of particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles. So 1/2 the universe may exist and the other 1/2 may not. We are not able to differentiate exactly
And if things can exist and not exist at the same time, then would nullify a foundational law of logic, i.e. the Law of Noncontradiction. And understand what this means: There would be no such thing as a contradiction.

But what you're alluding to is the Two-Slit experiment but there is a "wee bit" of a problem with your conclusion, which is demonstrated in the two links below. But if you think you're up to the task and want to get to the meat of the matter sooner rather than later, check out the second link first.

http://www.toughquestionsanswered.or...iction-part-1/

http://www.toughquestionsanswered.or...iction-part-2/
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:07 PM   #5755
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But what you're alluding to is the Two-Slit experiment .
No I am not. I am discussing the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle as it applies to the quantum fluctuation of space as illustrated by the Casimir effect
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Old 03-15-2018, 02:17 PM   #5756
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No I am not. I am discussing the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle as it applies to the quantum fluctuation of space as illustrated by the Casimir effect
Explain how the Casimir effect has things existing and not existing at the same time and in the same sense.
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Old 03-15-2018, 02:20 PM   #5757
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Explain how the Casimir effect has things existing and not existing at the same time and in the same sense.
I already have and posted videos. And I have been telling you about it for many years.
To sum up genesis is not complete.
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Old 03-15-2018, 02:44 PM   #5758
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I already have and posted videos. And I have been telling you about it for many years.
To sum up genesis is not complete.
I don't do vids. Explain with a link or in your own words.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:35 PM   #5759
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I don't do vids. Explain with a link or in your own words.
I already did and you quoted me post #5753

"Once again the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle states things can exist and not exist at the same time, contrary to 17th century physics. However we can not know precisely which parts of existence do not exist and which do. In the quantum fluctuation (or vacuum state fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point in space. A quantum fluctuation is the temporary appearance of energetic particles out of empty space, as allowed by the uncertainty principle. The uncertainty principle states that for a pair of conjugate variables such as position/momentum or energy/time, it is impossible to have a precisely determined value of each member of the pair at the same time. For example, a particle pair can pop out of the vacuum during a very short time interval.

This allows the creation of particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles. So 1/2 the universe may exist and the other 1/2 may not. We are not able to differentiate exactly"

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Old 03-15-2018, 05:22 PM   #5760
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Ther specifics.....
Once again the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle states things can exist and not exist at the same time, contrary to 17th century physics. However we can not know precisely which parts of existence do not exist and which do. In the quantum fluctuation (or vacuum state fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point in space. A quantum fluctuation is the temporary appearance of energetic particles out of empty space, as allowed by the uncertainty principle. The uncertainty principle states that for a pair of conjugate variables such as position/momentum or energy/time, it is impossible to have a precisely determined value of each member of the pair at the same time. For example, a particle pair can pop out of the vacuum during a very short time interval.

This allows the creation of particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles. So 1/2 the universe may exist and the other 1/2 may not. We are not able to differentiate exactly
Sounds more like a paradox or even a "mystery" than a contradiction. There's not a thing I've read online about this phenomenon of this particular effect which even remotely suggests what you're what you're implying.

And if you go back and read the links I proved earlier that alludes to the Uncertainty Principle and the Double Slit test, the writer claims that virtually no physicist really believes that quantum mechanics nullifies the law of noncontradiction. Can you even begin to imagine what all the profound implications to a nullification of such a law would be? It would literally (yeah, I said LITERALLY) render all forms of communication between and among human beings irrational, since the law of noncontradiction actually forms a foundational basis for rational thought and communication.

Here is an excellent quote from Christian Philosopher Dr. Francis Schaeffer. Try really hard to absorb his meaning.

Because the law of non-contradiction is so basic to human thinking and speaking, it is closely tied to the notion of rationality. Francis Schaeffer discusses this:

They [western philosophers from the Greeks onward] all believed in the rational. This word has no relationship to the word “rationalism.” They acted on the basis that man's aspiration for the validity of reason was well founded. They thought in terms of antithesis. If a certain thing was true, the opposite was not true . . . This is something that goes as far back as you can go in man's thinking. There is no historic basis for the later Heidegger's position that the pre-Socratic Greeks, prior to Aristotle, thought differently.
As a matter of fact it is the only way one CAN think. The sobering fact is that the only way one CAN reject thinking in terms of an antithesis and the rational is on the basis of the rational and the antithesis . . . That is the way God has made us and there is no other way to think. Therefore, the basis of classical logic is that A is not non-A.1 (emphases mine)

The writer of the article goes on to say that the "Law of Noncontradiction is not the whole for what it means to be rational, but it is a necessary foundation to it.". If we remove this necessary foundational stone to the structure of rational thought and communication, everything collapses into an irrational, unintelligible rubble.

Dr. Gordon Clarke had a few choice words to say about the great significance to this law as well.

If the law of contradiction is curbed, then a collection of letters, w-a-t-e-r, can mean not only sulfuric acid, but also at the same time and in the same sentence, tree, stone, Arcturus, the preposition because, and the cow jumped over the moon, ad infinitum. Suppose there was a word in the dictionary spelled snerp. The dictionary listed its meanings [words starting with “a” etc.] . . . That is to say, snerp bears the meaning of every word in the dictionary. Accordingly, when you write “snerp snerp snerp snerp” you mean “the adept concubine was a zymotic Zouave.” The sentence also means, “Football is a murderous sport.” A word that means everything means nothing.

If non-contradiction is violated and “I am the Walrus” (the title of a Beatles song) then not only communication, but rational thought about reality becomes impossible. Clark continues:


Farcical? Of course it is ludicrous; and that is why the dialectical theologians and all others who object to logic are ridiculous. Whenever one curbs logic, false and true mean the same thing, metaphor means literal, and all means nothing. Therefore, when a congregation hears a minister denounce logic, thinking, and rationality, it should, metaphorically, tar and feather him and drag him out of town through the cactus. Snerp! Just like that!5 (emphasis mine)

http://cicministry.org/scholarly/sch004.htm
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