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Old 07-16-2011, 12:04 PM   #1
Helles
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Mentoring and Cooperation

Compared to most of you, I am a relative newcomer to thoroughbred racing. I've been studying for about eight years. I spent the 25 years prior to that studying greyhounds.

I had the good fortune to hook up with two very good dog players back then and exchange ideas and plays. We used to get together on Yahoo chat and enable the voice function and then sit there and play the races together. This was not only very informative, but also a lot of fun. One of them had played professionally for several years and I found his insight very helpful and it improved my play.

Fast forward to March 2011. I was looking for a software program that offered the flexibility to do my own research and build my own approach(es) to the game. Unfortunately, there appeared to be three or four really good ones. How to choose? Long story (thankfully) shortened, I liked what Dave Schwartz had been writing on PA so I decided on HSH.

This isn't a commercial for HSH, but rather for a way for some of us to perhaps improve our game.

I have been lurking on PA for several years and I've read quite a bit. One thing that stuck with me and I could relate to my dog days is the idea of having a mentor. This has come up in books I have read and many of the members here have pointed out the importance of having a mentor. It has also been pointed out here that you can emulate a mentor but it is unlikely that you can copy a mentor's approach and enjoy the same success.

Okay, so where do I find a mentor? I can't very well ask Thaskalos to spend an hour a day with me to help me improve my game. I also can't ask him to show me how he does it. This is where the 'cooperation' in the title of my post comes in.

Dave put me in touch with DT, an experienced user of HSH. DT took the time to show me some things with HSH and pointed me to reference materials and "How to" information to get started. As I began my research, DT and I began exchanging ideas and discussing what worked and what didn't. Soon, Dave put Jon, another new user, in touch with DT and I and we created a cooperative group. We have come together and established a common goal: Winning money.

With this in mind, we have mapped out a strategy to get to the point of being profitable. With all three of us working the problem, separate areas of the same problem, we are getting work done and seeing results much faster than any of us could have alone.

This is where a strong leader, or mentor comes into play in our particular circumstance. We use Dave as a sounding board for our ideas. Dave has given us suggestions and nudged us in certain directions and kept us on track. We are closing in on an approach that we feel will be profitable for all of us. Dave's leadership in this area has been very valuable.

Now, this might not be a blueprint for many of you to follow. But if you think this kind of cooperative effort might help your game, then you might PM Dave Schwartz and see if he can put you together with any like-minded individuals. Knowing Dave, I don't think he would mind doing this in the least. (If he does, I'm sure he'll be along to sock me in the mush in short order) For me and where I am with my game, this cooperative effort and mentoring from Dave have been invaluable. I know it has moved me much closer to long-term profitability.

Good luck.

Doug
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Old 07-16-2011, 12:45 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Helles
Compared to most of you, I am a relative newcomer to thoroughbred racing. I've been studying for about eight years. I spent the 25 years prior to that studying greyhounds.

I had the good fortune to hook up with two very good dog players back then and exchange ideas and plays. We used to get together on Yahoo chat and enable the voice function and then sit there and play the races together. This was not only very informative, but also a lot of fun. One of them had played professionally for several years and I found his insight very helpful and it improved my play.

Fast forward to March 2011. I was looking for a software program that offered the flexibility to do my own research and build my own approach(es) to the game. Unfortunately, there appeared to be three or four really good ones. How to choose? Long story (thankfully) shortened, I liked what Dave Schwartz had been writing on PA so I decided on HSH.

This isn't a commercial for HSH, but rather for a way for some of us to perhaps improve our game.

I have been lurking on PA for several years and I've read quite a bit. One thing that stuck with me and I could relate to my dog days is the idea of having a mentor. This has come up in books I have read and many of the members here have pointed out the importance of having a mentor. It has also been pointed out here that you can emulate a mentor but it is unlikely that you can copy a mentor's approach and enjoy the same success.

Okay, so where do I find a mentor? I can't very well ask Thaskalos to spend an hour a day with me to help me improve my game. I also can't ask him to show me how he does it. This is where the 'cooperation' in the title of my post comes in.

Dave put me in touch with DT, an experienced user of HSH. DT took the time to show me some things with HSH and pointed me to reference materials and "How to" information to get started. As I began my research, DT and I began exchanging ideas and discussing what worked and what didn't. Soon, Dave put Jon, another new user, in touch with DT and I and we created a cooperative group. We have come together and established a common goal: Winning money.

With this in mind, we have mapped out a strategy to get to the point of being profitable. With all three of us working the problem, separate areas of the same problem, we are getting work done and seeing results much faster than any of us could have alone.

This is where a strong leader, or mentor comes into play in our particular circumstance. We use Dave as a sounding board for our ideas. Dave has given us suggestions and nudged us in certain directions and kept us on track. We are closing in on an approach that we feel will be profitable for all of us. Dave's leadership in this area has been very valuable.

Now, this might not be a blueprint for many of you to follow. But if you think this kind of cooperative effort might help your game, then you might PM Dave Schwartz and see if he can put you together with any like-minded individuals. Knowing Dave, I don't think he would mind doing this in the least. (If he does, I'm sure he'll be along to sock me in the mush in short order) For me and where I am with my game, this cooperative effort and mentoring from Dave have been invaluable. I know it has moved me much closer to long-term profitability.

Good luck.

Doug
Unless I am mistaken...Dave Schwartz is, as we speak, in the process of putting together something which is designed to accomplish the very thing you are talking about.

As I, and others, have said before...a "real" mentor is INVALUABLE in this game -- mainly for two reasons:

The complexity of the game...and the vast amounts of misinformation floating around about how to play it.

Without a mentor, the inexperienced player can remain sidetracked for many years...
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Old 07-16-2011, 03:14 PM   #3
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To add (slightly) to Doug's post - I have been playing this game for 30+ years. Never profitable though over the years lost less than the track take by a statistially significant amount (though the most significant digit is stil the minus sign in front of the annual results.

To make our group -- and any group -- work, I think is:
a. Needs to be small (I think max of 3 plus mentor)
B. Needs to have each person bring different skills and perspectives to the table
C. Need to develop a level of trust (after all we are talking about money)
D. Needs the right mentor (we are lucky that we have Dave)
E. Needs to be flexible - everyone has to contribute, but time demans vary so one week one person may soend more time than the others but then it can flip the next week

The power of the group, as Doug said, is we can work through theories faster and get much more creative than if we did things alone.

If you can find such a group, I STRONGLY encourage it. And good luck!
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Old 07-16-2011, 04:13 PM   #4
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Unless I am mistaken...Dave Schwartz is, as we speak, in the process of putting together something which is designed to accomplish the very thing you are talking about.
Thaskalos is right on the money here. In fact, I am in the process of completely re-designing how our company (and me) services customers.

Over the years we have had several hundred customers come and go. Many have come back several times.

People talk about my "great tech support" because I respond quickly to questions. While they are right about the typical response times, I have recently discovered that, in truth, the way I have supported MOST customers has actually been very poor.

See, what happens is that the squeaky wheels have gotten lots of oil. That is, the guys who ask the questions get the answers. I always thought that was the goal: get your questions answered completely and quickly.

I have learned over the past few months that this approach completely leaves out the guy that really just doesn't know where to begin or, worse, doesn't really know where to start.

The guy who never really gets started doesn't understand what questions to ask. And worse (for him), is that the logical question, "Where do I start?" is answered with "Go watch 10 hours of video seminar."

Seminars are a great way to teach. But when you have a simple question, you need a simple answer. Okay, sometimes the answer isn't really simple, but "It is somewhere in video #4" is just not a good answer.

So, I am working on a plan. At this point I have created "the plan to create the plan." No joke. There are many facets to the plan.

Doug, Duff and Jon were a test case for me. I wanted to see if I could make it work with them and, as you can see from their posts, it is working splendidly.

The truth is, HSH is a fairly simple program. (Yeah, right.) No, seriously, it is - once you understand what you are trying to do. This is easily evidenced by watching these guys when they handicap a race. I mean, they are doing really high-level handicapping - deep stuff - and they are doing it all in a matter of seconds!

Using the methods I have used for teaching them, I am putting together a model for teaching anyone. Understand that I did not teach them step-by-step, one-on-one.

The answer lies in the user having a good "starting foundation" - enough to get started right-away - so that they know the questions they need to ask and there is a place to get those answers with a reasonable amount of effort.

So, if you have ever purchased (or rented) HSH, stay tuned - because I will have this plan ready to talk about in the next few days.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

PS: In case anyone needs to hear it, this upcoming "plan" comes at absolutely zero cost to the client (beyond the usual download cost, of course).
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Old 07-16-2011, 04:57 PM   #5
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http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...+Probabilities

Looks like that update to Percentages & Probabilities has been pushed back another few years. My comment from 2-1/2 years ago still applies:

"From my perspective, [the Percentages & Probabilities update] by itself would suffice to adequately address several of the other areas (mentioned in the New Products survey)."

Last edited by Overlay; 07-16-2011 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 07-16-2011, 05:41 PM   #6
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I have often thought of taking on a student or two, but it would eventually require me to offer up some well kept secrets that took me years to develop. Not sure if I want to do that just yet.

I have posted on these forums from time to time, on some methods and exercise’s that I am sure would prove very helpful to anyone who cared to try them.

I have also found that the more a person already knows about handicapping, the harder it is to teach them anything. Mostly they just want a good argument. They are stuck in the same old belief system, even when the balance sheet says it loses money over time.

Maybe one day

Regards,

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Old 07-16-2011, 06:11 PM   #7
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Looks like that update to Percentages & Probabilities has been pushed back another few years.
Overlay, actually, not true. It IS my next product on the horizon.

My immediate plan is:

1. Get the HSH plan fully designed and in motion: This coming week.
2. Get an update workshop to NewPace on the agenda: Also this week. (Workshop will be 1st week in August).
3. Percentages & Probabilities. Next, target release hopefully around Labor Day.



Quote:
I have also found that the more a person already knows about handicapping, the harder it is to teach them anything. Mostly they just want a good argument. They are stuck in the same old belief system, even when the balance sheet says it loses money over time.
Windoor,

I am not too familiar with the argument part (perhaps because I just don't have a need to argue about why someone continues to lose). It can certainly present a problem if someone insists on doing things the way they know is right. LOL

In our Basics of Winning class, I hammered the guys over the head constantly with the idea that if they are winning they SHOULD kewep doing what they are doing. Otherwise, change is demanded if they want to stop their losing ways. The logic is irrefutable.

On a related note, after about 20 years of inactivity, I am back to doing some martial arts. Considering my advanced age (60) and physical condition, I have decided to change my direction to a very soft style - Wing Chun. One of the principles of that art is known as Empty Your Cup. The idea is that you cannot put more stuff into a cup that is already full.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz
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Old 07-16-2011, 06:35 PM   #8
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A. Needs to be small (I think max of 3 plus mentor)
B. Needs to have each person bring different skills and perspectives to the table
C. Need to develop a level of trust (after all we are talking about money)
D. Needs the right mentor (we are lucky that we have Dave)
E. Needs to be flexible - everyone has to contribute, but time demands vary so one week one person may soend more time than the others but then it can flip the next week
Jon,

A few comments, if you please.

A. I think perfect size is about 6. I think you guys would like to have a couple more IF the added ones were workers.

B. Different skills are essential.

C. Trust - but you are assuming that the group may ultimately form a financial partnership. Truthfully, I expect that will rarely be the case.

D. Not only is the mentor important, but the group needs to have at least an informal leader. Also, the mentor (at HSH that will likely always be me) should not be simply issuing orders. I guide, but the group must make their own decisions about direction.

E. People who join a group with only taking in mind, and no real intention of giving, are being dishonest. I am referring to more than just workload as that is only the beginning. If you do not pull your fair share of work - or have some other skill that the group needs (i.e. math, spreadsheets, very creative analysis, something special) - then there is no contribution.

The attitude that says, "I am going to use whatever discoveries you guys make but share none of mine" just doesn't work. Perhaps the higher education mantra of "Publish or Perish" (which translates into what have YOU done lately?) works well in this situation.

General Comments About Collaboration
I actually helped form this group - from three guys that I felt had a lot in common including level of commitment, intelligence, work ethic, desired direction, etc. In other words, I knew all three and thought they'd be a good match. There was actually a fourth but he fell away very quickly as having no real interest (and that's okay; it is certainly honest).


Part of my plan is to match people together with other people who are interested in a like approach. Of course, that means I have to have a good idea of what you are working on in order to know who might be a good match. (I actually have some ideas for this.

BTW, high-powered groups like this one have to pay back a little by helping other groups and users. Already these guys are doing that. As a way of saying "thank you" to them, I give them far more of my time than anyone else gets (except Jim P. - who always does so much for the cause).

There is a catch-22 in collaboration. The more a player needs help, the greater the likelihood that he is willing to collaborate. In other words, the players who know more (or at least think they know more) are generally less willing to collaborate.

Still one more way to say it is that players have a tendency to leave the herd when they think they are ready to be profitable. That is the bad news. The good news is that there are always a few winners who are willing to help. That does not mean that they are going to give up all their secrets - heck, I don't even do that.


Dave Schwartz


PS: Stay tuned - especially those of you who are current or past HSH users who want to be a part of something like this. It is all in the plan.
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Old 07-16-2011, 11:16 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz
Overlay, actually, not true. It IS my next product on the horizon.

My immediate plan is:

1. Get the HSH plan fully designed and in motion: This coming week.
2. Get an update workshop to NewPace on the agenda: Also this week. (Workshop will be 1st week in August).
3. Percentages & Probabilities. Next, target release hopefully around Labor Day.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz
Dave, I sent you a PM.
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Old 07-16-2011, 11:19 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz
Jon,

A few comments, if you please.

A. I think perfect size is about 6. I think you guys would like to have a couple more IF the added ones were workers.

B. Different skills are essential.

C. Trust - but you are assuming that the group may ultimately form a financial partnership. Truthfully, I expect that will rarely be the case.

D. Not only is the mentor important, but the group needs to have at least an informal leader. Also, the mentor (at HSH that will likely always be me) should not be simply issuing orders. I guide, but the group must make their own decisions about direction.

E. People who join a group with only taking in mind, and no real intention of giving, are being dishonest. I am referring to more than just workload as that is only the beginning. If you do not pull your fair share of work - or have some other skill that the group needs (i.e. math, spreadsheets, very creative analysis, something special) - then there is no contribution.
A - depends on the group - I was thinking one (like ours) that is looking at pooling fin'l resources. If not this route (and I agree - most won't) then yes, it could be bigger (e.g., 6)
B,C,D,E - agree 100%

And to the comment someone said about not giving away secrets...that is true too. The nice thing is if you can get a group that you trust then the secrets the group discovers are for the benefit of the group - many, if not all, would never have been discovered if not for the group.

And if the group is real good you get a few good laughs out of it too (we have for sure)

I think Dave is onto something here that is very powerful if you can be part of the right group (as he laid out in his post).

Tha's my 2 cents anyway

Last edited by jdhanover; 07-16-2011 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 07-17-2011, 01:28 AM   #11
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Overlay,

I emailed you as your mailbox is full.

Dave
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Old 07-17-2011, 02:48 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlay
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...+Probabilities

Looks like that update to Percentages & Probabilities has been pushed back another few years. My comment from 2-1/2 years ago still applies:

"From my perspective, [the Percentages & Probabilities update] by itself would suffice to adequately address several of the other areas (mentioned in the New Products survey)."
I love this Guy

No but honestly I think I wrote on here before about a wishing for a mentor and what finding one could possibly do for me and my game, but that was when I 1st came here on the board, and now after these past few years, I still believe in the great value of a Mentor, for which I think I can say I found one, or at the least have found a friend who does not hang up on me, just kidding, having someone to help with the everyday struggles and explaining and showing what works and what does not and how they come to that realization, thru hard work and testing and studies over and over till they show profits.

Finding a Mentor is more personal than finding a group, like our board PAIHL contest was a group effort, which allowed some of us to work with a group and see how well we did, for that experience was invaluable, one of the best idea's on the board in years was that contest, my opinion anyway, as it made us work together as a group, who for us was the HSH Pickmaster Team and I think we did okay overall, but the being able to ask others and bounce idea's off the head, softly of course, was a truly wonderful learning experience.

Now having a group of guys is a step in the right direction, but also one must be at a point where one can devote time necessary to the game, as a real Mentor is playing and working hard to win, each day and if you are not ready and willing to commit the time needed to learn, like I was unwilling to drop everything and go learn , I had to keep working and trying to learn and win in between, which isn't impossible just harder and tougher because of the time between lessons and or consultations/mentoring sessions takes place , but I am lucky enough to have a very patient guy willing to put up with my many shortcomings and still help me with becoming a winning player, and no it is not Dave, thou he has been very helpful and patient with me , that is well known here , as have plenty of people been very helpful here, and I do mean many people and very very helpful, problem with me was too much information and I was overwhelmed and had too short of an attention span to keep it all, as soon as someone say this I would try it till some else would say try this, and off I go, but finally I have the right person, who I forever grateful to for helping so much, my Mentor.

Well I went over board again, but this was an area I thought I would have found someone retiring in Florida who say come on down and let me teach what I have learned all these and see if you can pas it on when you retire, kinda like a lost Uncle who loved the ponies and wanted to now pass on the family secrets to you, that was what I was hoping to find when I 1st posted about finding a Mentor, but then found out I would never find such a guy from a post on here and if I did was unable to drop everything and go, so I kept at it slowly making progress, and every now and then stirring up things here , but great post and I just want to say having a mentor is a very important part of becoming a winner, that someone to help guide thru all the mess out there.. best of luck


patrick
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Old 07-17-2011, 03:03 AM   #13
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Patrick...with all due respect, you've been given a LOT of great advice over your time here, but all to often, it seems that you ignore it, for whatever personal reasons you have for doing so...

Why would it be any different should you find someone willing to mentor you?
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Old 07-17-2011, 03:21 AM   #14
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Patrick...with all due respect, you've been given a LOT of great advice over your time here, but all to often, it seems that you ignore it, for whatever personal reasons you have for doing so...

Why would it be any different should you find someone willing to mentor you?
Also with all due respect...Bossman

Did you read my post Sir, if did you see I HAVE FOUND A MENTOR, and I am now focused more and listening to him, and yes I said I have been given awesome advice here, but was unable to understand some of it and some of it just plain did not get, but since I have found my Mentor I have turned things around tremendously, and now play very little anymore and I am in constant learning and practicing mode, and have upped my game in my opinion by leaps and bounds, but I am doing quietly , sometimes posting here my picks and sometimes at Pace and Cap , but the most important thing here is that My Mentor has helped me overcome all the personal business and helped me focus where I need to and for me I am so very grateful to him.

Finding a Mentor is a must have in my opinion, any one who can help you understand and overcome all that is out there and get you to focus on the things that matter.

And as said from a previous post, it is very hard for one to change what he has learned and feels is important to winning, when taught new ways, but you must ask yourself this, is your way winning, if not then you need to change and find a way to win, and finding a winning Mentor is a great step in the right direction.

No dis-respect Bossman
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Old 07-17-2011, 03:31 AM   #15
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Whether I noticed that you found someone or not (and I apologize that somehow I missed that), that doesn't really change anything that I wrote.

Regardless, that's awesome...I'm very happy for you. Finding someone whom you can SEE with your own two eyes is a WINNER is a tremendous first step, and that's even before they ever teach you a thing.

Just finding someone whom you can see for yourself beats this game is half the battle. It puts you in the right mindset. It shows you this game can be beaten, and it inspires you to learn all that you can from this person.

I'm very happy you've found someone like this who is willing to show you the way and the light. And I'm also very happy you've opened your mind up to learning all you can from this person.

I wish you nothing but success.

Maybe after all this, I can use YOU as a mentor one of these summers up at Saratoga...
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