Religion II

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

Among a group of that size with that level of education there should be at least 10. I think there are about 50 to 100 in the closet.

Maybe. There is no religious test to hold public office.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

What "communist propaganda" do you have in mind. I don't recall you mentioning any. Just vague generalities.

Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism. Vladimir Lenin

What don't you understand about Lenin's quote:bang

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

Among a group of that size with that level of education there should be at least 10. I think there are about 50 to 100 in the closet.

Do you really believe that a confessed atheist could not be elected from a district in California, especially in San Francisco or from Seattle, Washington?

Why? Is it because atheists want religious people to represent them?

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate

If this link supposedly represents "cutting-edge philosophical discussion", then I'd say the discipline hasn't moved forward much in 35 years. Actually longer, since when I considered the "Allegory of the Cave" back in college, I thought Plato could have saved a lot of ink with the expression, "Everything is relative."

Mr. Gutting can certainly toss the 25 cent phrases around, but one does not need to be an instructor at Notre Dame to poke holes in either the theistic or atheistic views of religion. Firm believers on both sides of the topic know this - zealots (say, like Boxcar and Dawkins, do not). The evidence for materialism stands on it's own, with of course the limits to science and human understanding, my "Allegory of the 60W bulb" summing it up. The evidence for the supernatural, OTH, gets bogged down in abstract terminology and personal experiences (err, qualia), which are not only not quantifiable, they are not repeatable (generally). This of course doesn't mean that one or more definitions of the supernatural isn't correct, but it's not like lighting up a nuclear reactor.

dnlgfnk, in one of your earlier posts you mentioned the mind/body problem. It's interesting to think about it, as some of the mind experiences can be described and are repeatable, sharing some of the characteristics of the physical/material body. But at death, it appears to become a moot point, as the mind/soul/consciousness disappears - for all intensive purposes. Again, this doesn't mean it never existed, or was materialistic, or doesn't go into some other phase we can't sense or understand. But, until that changes and homo sapiens can bridge that gap, you're still dead.

You also mentioned free will. A discussion about that can get bogged down, as each side tries to trip the other up with false logic, but one thing I learned during my Lutheran confirmation classes - God, as described to me, being the omniscient and all-powerful creator of the Universe, could not create me AND provide me with free will. Either he didn't exist as described, or the game was rigged in a form of manifest destiny (and I wasn't getting a seat in steerage).

I'm not the biggest fan of philosophy, but God knows (err, pardon the expression) we need all the help we can get these days to improve critical thinking skills. But since the average bloke on the street rolls their eyes in dismay a couple of questions into philosophy, it has its limitations when being applied to the masses for use in religious discussions. The same average bloke can hang in there a bit longer with limiting the topic to religion, and most folks have a general gut or "from the heart" view on it.

Mr. Gutting is correct about one thing though:



That would be me - a card-carrying agnostic since the age of 10 or so, though admittedly a 5.5 or so on the Dawkins scale. And I even had red hair back then....:-)

Science is great at what it is capable of explaining. I certainly champion science, but when Hawking, Dawkins or anyone else attempts to interpret the science in terms of "why", they become philosophers.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by Actor

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." - Adolph Hitler

"This campaign was based in part on ideas about public health and genetic “fitness” that had grown out of the inclination of many late nineteenth century scientists and intellectuals to apply the Darwinian concepts of evolution to the problems of human society"...

https://www.ushmm.org/collections/bi...racial-science

"The Nazis also adopted the social Darwinist take on Darwinian evolutionary theory regarding the “survival of the fittest...”

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article...uleId=10007457

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by Actor

What "communist propaganda" do you have in mind. I don't recall you mentioning any. Just vague generalities.

Do you own a mirror?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism. Vladimir Lenin

What don't you understand about Lenin's quote:bang

Lenin's quote has nothing to do with the question at hand which is whether a deity does or does not exist. It's a straw man.

Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of Christianity. Numerous politicians, religious leaders, businessmen, etc.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Do you really believe that a confessed atheist could not be elected from a district in California, especially in San Francisco or from Seattle, Washington?

Do you really believe that atheists constitute a majority of the electorate in any district in California, especially in San Francisco?

Seattle is not in California.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

Lenin's quote has nothing to do with the question at hand which is whether a deity does or does not exist. It's a straw man.

Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of Christianity. Numerous politicians, religious leaders, businessmen, etc.

Strange I don't recall that question. I recall your very opinionated statement about Christianity being a false religion.

The question at hand, which I asked, is why would someone believe communist propaganda, if they are not a communist?

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

Do you really believe that atheists constitute a majority of the electorate in any district in California, especially in San Francisco?

Seattle is not in California.

Do you know how to read?

or from Seattle, Washington?

Why do you think only atheists would vote for an atheist? There is no religious test and I believe liberal thinking people would be open to voting for an atheist, after all a transgender was just elected in the recent Virginia elections.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

Lenin's quote has nothing to do with the question at hand which is whether a deity does or does not exist. It's a straw man.

Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of Christianity. Numerous politicians, religious leaders, businessmen, etc.

Actually, Lenin's quote affirms the existence of a deity because atheism is propaganda. Propaganda, which by definition, are false and misleading statements needed to convince people rights only come from their leaders.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

There is no religious test to hold public office.

This is true only for public offices wherein the holder of the office is hired. For elected officials the electorate can impose any test they want. If enough voters apply a certain test, e.g., the candidate must be Christian, then that candidate will not get the job if he/she fails the test. As a practical matter there is no way to prevent this.

The same applies indirectly for public offices where the holder is appointed when the appointing official is elected. E.g., the latest appointment to the Supreme Court had to pass the religious test of being acceptable to evangelical voters who had supported Trump.

Even public officers who are hired can be subjected to the religious test. Many communities would find other excuses to fire a school teacher who revealed that he/she was an atheist.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism. Vladimir Lenin

I've been trying to find a source for that quote. Would you tell me where you found it?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Actor

I've been trying to find a source for that quote. Would you tell me where you found it?

Never mind. I found it.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Propaganda, which by definition, are false and misleading statements needed to convince people rights only come from their leaders.

Wrong. From M-W.

propaganda:

• :the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
• :ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also :a public action having such an effect

According to the definition propaganda need not be false. It can be absolutely true. Nor is it limited to convincing people that rights only come from their leaders.

The root word of propaganda is propagate.

• :to foster growing knowledge of, familiarity with, or acceptance of (something, such as an idea or belief)