Clemens on HOF ballot

[redshift1]

Several former PED users (or maybe all, who knows) on ballot, no way any of them makes the HOF. Bonds, Sosa and Clemens are obvious but Piazza may be a different story.




http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...allot/related/

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[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by redshift1

Several former PED users (or maybe all, who knows) on ballot, no way any of them makes the HOF. Bonds, Sosa and Clemens are obvious but Piazza may be a different story.




http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...allot/related/

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As opposed to the ones already in? Bonds and Clemens will make it eventually.

[cj's dad]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

As opposed to the ones already in? Bonds and Clemens will make it eventually.

I don't know about that Al. Accountability has to start somewhere. I hope.

[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by cj's dad

I don't know about that Al. Accountability has to start somewhere. I hope.

I'm not sure what the accountability was for. The sport was never clean, none of them were or even still are. I'll still stand by the claim that Mickey Mantle likely received steroid injections. Guys were popping amphetamines like candy in the 60s and 70s. Those are PEDs. Sholud all the great players from that era be excluded? From the first day you could make money playing a game, guys were doing whatever they could to keep doing it. I don't blame them. I would too. Beats selling cars or whatever else kinda job these guys would get otherwise.

Way I see it, Clemens and Bonds were great players with or without. They should be in. Let history judge them as it will. Sosa and McGuire were not great players without and were pretty one dimentional with. They should not be in.

How bad these things are, I'm not sure. In a way they are miracle drugs, allowing the players to be the best they can be and play through long seasons at near physical peak. Abused, I'm sure they are dangerous like all drugs, but I'm not so sure if they aren't good for the players if properly administered.

As I've always said too, as long as there has been baseball, there has been "cheating" in baseball. Some considered the curve ball cheating in the early days if you can believe that. I guess it just doesn't bother me that much.

[redshift1]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

As opposed to the ones already in? Bonds and Clemens will make it eventually.

Not any time soon the overwhelming negative publicity precludes selection for at least a generation. Buster Olney is voting for the aforementioned but he conceded he's in a small minority.

.

[rastajenk]

Vote for Pedro! Rose, that is. His transgressions weren't any worse than the current generation of ballotees.

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by rastajenk

Vote for Pedro! Rose, that is. His transgressions weren't any worse than the current generation of ballotees.

I truly hope that happens someday.
Sure hope it's while Pete is alive and kicking, too.

[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by horses4courses

I truly hope that happens someday.
Sure hope it's while Pete is alive and kicking, too.

I'll be for it as soon as he tells the truth. He still has not to this day. He'd have been in for a long time now if only he had. His transgressions were far worse BTW. He was altering game outcomes. He did things in had effects not only on the games he bet on but the next days game as well.

[rastajenk]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

Way I see it, Clemens and Bonds were great players with or without. They should be in.

Was not Pete Rose a great player?

I don't think he'd be in by now if he had come clean; wouldn't have made a bit of difference.

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

His transgressions were far worse BTW. He was altering game outcomes. He did things in had effects not only on the games he bet on but the next days game as well.

Can you prove these statements?

I have met Pete Rose on a number of occasions.
A close friend of mine has spent a fair amount of time with the man.
That doesn't bring me any closer to his transgressions, but I do have some insight on Pete Rose's thoughts concerning his punishment.

Those are strong allegations to make.
You would have to be reading between the lines of any evidence ever produced,
unless you have another private source.

[ElKabong]

I agree with OTM Al on Bonds and Clemens. They were great before PEDs. Clemens was the best RHP I ever saw. Bonds was the best player of his era before he took PEDs, or, made him look like a freak. McGuire and Sosa weren't HOF material until they hit the juice

I'd leave off Bonds and Rocket till the 3rd year....if for nothing else, see what else comes out about them if anything. Same for all the steroid era players.

Side note on Clemens. Watching him in Austin was other-worldly. His soph yr was amazing, his walk to K ratio was unreal. His Jr year he was our 2nd best pitcher during the season (Schiraldi had the better year), yet he sat out the deciding game vs Miss State in a game that determined who would go to the CWS........

Coach Gus(tafson) called on Steve Labay to pitch vs MSU in the 83 regionals, a team of LH batters that included Raffy Palmiero and Will Clark.... Labay, who couldn't break a pane of glass with his fastball, shut down the Bulldogs and we went on to win the CWS that season.....all b/c Clemens was seated in favor of Steve "LaLob" Labay from the Brazosport area. MSU lit up Clemens in game 1, we had to claw thru the losers bracket to get to the Monday game.......Clemens shined in the CWS, pitched in relief to close out the championship game on 2 days rest vs Bama (Dave Madigan led team).......

The guy was amazing his first few yrs in the Mlb. In the very late 90s I had a feeling he hit the roids given his personality change.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

I'll be for it as soon as he tells the truth. He still has not to this day. He'd have been in for a long time now if only he had. His transgressions were far worse BTW. He was altering game outcomes. He did things in had effects not only on the games he bet on but the next days game as well.

Pete Rose is a degenerate gambler who bets on more than just baseball. He's an action junkie, he's not looking to 'fix' sporting events for an 'edge'. Problem gamblers just want the action, they dont care about the winning part of things. Pete is a gambler, not an 'investor' who is looking to manipulate a baseball game in order to 'profit'.

[thaskalos]

I can understand the delimma of a lesser player...who has to take steroids in order to secure his place in the major leagues.

But what can I say about a superstar, who elects to take steroids in order to hit the ball 500 feet...instead of only the 450 feet that his natural ability would allow?

Or the best pitcher most of us have ever seen, who sought the help that only steroids could provide...so he could be untouchable...because mere greatness was not enough for him?

BECAUSE they were both great even without steroids...THAT'S why both Bonds and Clemens deserve to be permanently kept out of the HOF. They didn't need to cheat...and yet they did it anyway.

Their blatant disregard for the rules of the game has already gotten them all the wealth they could ask for. But it should end there.

The game's most coveted prize is not for them.

[Robert Goren]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

I'm not sure what the accountability was for. The sport was never clean, none of them were or even still are. I'll still stand by the claim that Mickey Mantle likely received steroid injections. Guys were popping amphetamines like candy in the 60s and 70s. Those are PEDs. Sholud all the great players from that era be excluded? From the first day you could make money playing a game, guys were doing whatever they could to keep doing it. I don't blame them. I would too. Beats selling cars or whatever else kinda job these guys would get otherwise.

I don't think steroids even existed when Mantle was playing. 1968 was his last year. One thing was for sure, he drank more than his fair share of alcohol. I don't think anybody ever thought alcohol was a PED unless they were drunk at the time.

[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

I don't think steroids even existed when Mantle was playing. 1968 was his last year. One thing was for sure, he drank more than his fair share of alcohol. I don't think anybody ever thought alcohol was a PED unless they were drunk at the time.

Yes they did. They had been around since the 20s. As to Mantle, recall why he fell out of the 1961 HR race. Absess on hip after receiving a "vitamin B" shot from infamous NY doctor known as "Dr Feelgood". The shots were well known to contain Vitamin B as well as amphetamines and steroids. Steroid injections well known to have potential side affects of causing absess. The "proof" is just as substantial to any of the guys who never tested positive in modern days. And of course there were the regular ole greenies.