Religious

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Overlay

As I use the term, "spirit" is the animating quality that separates life from non-life. .

You don't believe that we have souls.
Fair enough.
How then would you explain:

Mark 8:36 KJV
36For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

[Show Me the Wire]

We have both a spirit (human) and a soul.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

We have both a spirit (human) and a soul.

I don't believe that is the correct view either. But before presenting the biblical solution, I will wait for Overlay to answer Mr. Fox.

Boxcar

[thaskalos]

I am happy to see that we have finally moved beyond presenting our opinions as facts...and we are now stating them as the opinions that they really are.

My own opinion is that we don't HAVE souls...we ARE souls. We are not bodies with a soul included...we are souls, which have taken on a body in order to advance and learn through the lessons that we have to learn from in this life.

What is a "soul"?

IMO...it's the life-force that distinguishes a dead body from a living one.

My wife passed away at the age of 37...and I was at the hospital next to her when she breathed her final breath. I will never forget the difference in her face and body the moment she died. She no longer looked like a living person, and she didn't look as if she was asleep. She was "dead" and I could see it just by looking at her. Whatever it was that was keeping her alive had left her...and what was on the hospital bed was just a dead body -- which had been left behind like a discarded garment.

Where had this life-force gone...and would it ever come back again?

I don't know...but I know that it was there, and it wasn't there any longer...

[PaceAdvantage]

I have read many accounts such as yours thaskalos, when one witnesses a loved one at the exact moment of death.

And my sympathies to you and your family on such a devastating loss at such a young age.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I don't believe that is the correct view either. But before presenting the biblical solution, I will wait for Overlay to answer Mr. Fox.

Boxcar

Hebrews 4 verse 12 why do you think St. Paul said the word of GOD penetrates even between soul and spirit? We have both, they are intermingled as the rest of the body parts he mentions in the verse.

All life has a spirit of life, but not necessarily souls.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I am happy to see that we have finally moved beyond presenting our opinions as facts...and we are now stating them as the opinions that they really are.

My own opinion is that we don't HAVE souls...we ARE souls. We are not bodies with a soul included...we are souls, which have taken on a body in order to advance and learn through the lessons that we have to learn from in this life.

What is a "soul"?

IMO...it's the life-force that distinguishes a dead body from a living one.

My wife passed away at the age of 37...and I was at the hospital next to her when she breathed her final breath. I will never forget the difference in her face and body the moment she died. She no longer looked like a living person, and she didn't look as if she was asleep. She was "dead" and I could see it just by looking at her. Whatever it was that was keeping her alive had left her...and what was on the hospital bed was just a dead body -- which had been left behind like a discarded garment.

Where had this life-force gone...and would it ever come back again?

I don't know...but I know that it was there, and it wasn't there any longer...

I echo PA's sentiments. 37 is in the prime of life. My deepest sympathies for your loss.

But you have witnessed something, which actually not that many people get to do -- to actually be there next to someone when they breathe their last. So, by your admission you witnessed a change. Something happened at that last breath. So, how can you be sure, it wasn't her soul departing from her body, which is what death is? Death is the separation of the soul from the body. You call it a "life force", but how do you know that wasn't a sentient life force?

Boxcar

[Show Me the Wire]

"My own opinion is that we don't HAVE souls...we ARE souls. We are not bodies with a soul included...we are souls, which have taken on a body in order to advance and learn through the lessons that we have to learn from in this life."


thaskalos in your opinion how did these souls, which cloth themselves in bodies, come into being?

Also, my condolences for your loss.

[Wagergirl]

When my father died, I also witnessed the immediate change. I believe we have souls. I believe this body is just a vessel for our souls, and upon death we are released from these vessels. What happens after that, I am conflicted. Growing up Catholic, I believed that the soul then went to Purgatory. However, that conflicts with other teachings. Teachings that tells me that Jesus paid the price for my sins. If that were true, why would I need to go to Purgatory and be prayed out?

I remember when my father, an athiest, died. My brother, a practicing Catholic, begged me to help him pray dad out of Purgatory. I still don't quite get how that would work. If Dad didn't believe in God/Jesus prior to death, I don't believe that I will see him in Heaven. Sad, but that is what the Bible teaches, in my limited learning.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Wagergirl

When my father died, I also witnessed the immediate change. I believe we have souls. I believe this body is just a vessel for our souls, and upon death we are released from these vessels. What happens after that, I am conflicted. Growing up Catholic, I believed that the soul then went to Purgatory. However, that conflicts with other teachings. Teachings that tells me that Jesus paid the price for my sins. If that were true, why would I need to go to Purgatory and be prayed out?

I remember when my father, an athiest, died. My brother, a practicing Catholic, begged me to help him pray dad out of Purgatory. I still don't quite get how that would work. If Dad didn't believe in God/Jesus prior to death, I don't believe that I will see him in Heaven. Sad, but that is what the Bible teaches, in my limited learning.

Ouch, that is a sad story. It's sad because your understanding of scripture is correct. As the writer of Hebrews said, "It is appointed for men to die once, after that the judgment." (Heb 9:27)

Boxcar

[Overlay]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

You don't believe that we have souls.
Fair enough.
How then would you explain:

Mark 8:36 KJV
36For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

From a Greek interlinear translation:

Mark 8:36

IGNT(i)


36
G5101
τι

G1063
γαρ
FOR WHAT
G5623 (G5692)
ωφελησει
SHALL IT PROFIT
G444
ανθρωπον
A MAN
G1437
εαν
IF
G2770 (G5661)
κερδηση
HE GAIN
G3588
τον
THE
G2889
κοσμον
WORLD
G3650
ολον
WHOLE
G2532
και
AND
G2210 (G5686)
ζημιωθη

G3588
την
LOSE
G5590
ψυχην

G846
αυτου
HIS SOUL?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_in_the_Bible

From the above article:

Nephesh [the Hebrew term] and Psūchê [the Greek equivalent, as used in the above text] are not naturally immortal.[12][2][13][14][15] They die[16] and are uncomprehending[17] during the time between death and Judgment Day resurrection.[18][19][20][21][22]

John Goldingay writes, "The life of a human being came more directly from God, and it is also evident that when someone dies, the breath (rûaḥ, e.g., Ps 104:29) or the life (nepeš, e.g., Gen 35:18) disappears and returns to the God who is rûaḥ."[23] Death is conceived of as being the moment when an individual's nephesh or ruah is separated from the body, leaving the body lifeless.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Overlay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_in_the_Bible

I read all of that before. In fact, I drew upon that in an earlier post to you today.

To be honest, I've never ever heard a Christian say that man does not have a soul.

But you have written that on this board.

Was Mark just making that up in 8:36?

You believe the Bible, but your comment indicates that you do not believe what Mark said.

[Overlay]

The same word rendered in English as "soul" in some translations of that verse is more often translated "life" in the New Testament, according to the same article that both you and I referred to. I don't know how the distinction was drawn, but when I looked up parallel translations even of that specific verse, they were translated both "soul" and "life", with life actually being more prevalent. The following link is one example:

http://concordance.biblebrowser.com/al3/mark/8-36.htm

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Overlay

The same word rendered in English as "soul" in some translations of that verse is more often translated "life" in the New Testament, according to the same article that both you and I referred to. I don't know how the distinction was drawn, but when I looked up parallel translations even of that specific verse, they were translated both "soul" and "life", with life actually being more prevalent. The following link is one example:

http://concordance.biblebrowser.com/al3/mark/8-36.htm

Yes, there are several versions of what Mark said depending upon the translation.
I admit that until today I was only familiar with the Mark 8:36 that I posted.
Yet the term soul is referenced several times in the bible.


For example:Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. "

In whatever bible that you have, is the term "soul" employed?

[Overlay]

One response to that verse:

http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/b01...8.html#Return2

Before we go any further with a verse-by-verse back-and-forth, please take a look at the Custance link and tell me what you think of his reasoning in Journey Out of Time.