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Old 04-11-2013, 03:10 PM   #1
SandyW
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AQU Turf Racing

Where have all the turf horses gone?

Is this what we have to look forward to from New York racing, in todays 3ed race we can't find more then 5 runners that want to run.

The problem is that they let trainers scratch horses just because they feel like it, with no apparant reason.

This is really not a good sign going forward for the sport.

Things appear to be getting worse not better, although casino slot revenue is breaking records every month.

Last edited by SandyW; 04-11-2013 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:21 PM   #2
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You're concerned about the quality of turf racing at Aqueduct in mid-April, when weather conditions are frequently less than ideal? Lots of rain has pushed thru NYS the past couple days, with more to come...
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:26 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by FantasticDan
You're concerned about the quality of turf racing at Aqueduct in mid-April, when weather conditions are frequently less than ideal? Lots of rain has pushed thru NYS the past couple days, with more to come...
So what, so it rained, the turf course looks in real good shape, just an excuse that does not fly.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:31 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by SandyW
Where have all the turf horses gone?

Is this what we have to look forward to from New York racing, in todays 3ed race we can't find more then 5 runners that want to run.

The problem is that they let trainers scratch horses just because they feel like it, with no apparant reason.

This is really not a good sign going forward for the sport.

Things appear to be getting worse not better, although casino slot revenue is breaking records every month.
One of the things that NY racing does that i don't agree with is all these horses entering and scratching for no particular reason other than the trainer or owner probably handicapped the race and didnt like what they saw. If i was running the track, you enter, you run and if you dont run, you get penalized. If you don't like it, race someplace else.

But, since its a trainers and owners game, you arent going to ever get places to care about the product as much as they care about the whishes and whims of horse owners and trainers.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:49 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Stillriledup
One of the things that NY racing does that i don't agree with is all these horses entering and scratching for no particular reason other than the trainer or owner probably handicapped the race and didnt like what they saw. If i was running the track, you enter, you run and if you dont run, you get penalized. If you don't like it, race someplace else.
Well if a horse comes up sick or hurt, you can't expect trainer to run just because he entered while the horse was sound. I mean some things do go wrong with horses before race time. I do agree though that no one should scratch just because they think they won't win.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:53 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Stillriledup
... If i was running the track, you enter, you run and if you dont run, you get penalized. If you don't like it, race someplace else.

...
You aren't the first person to think that way. And not surprisingly, some of them were running the track. Problem is, it just doesn't work as simply as you make it out to be. I'm sure you know that. Sure, you can take away stalls or deprive them altogether, but at some point, it becomes self-defeating if your whole beef is lack of entrants participating.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:43 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by tzipi
Well if a horse comes up sick or hurt, you can't expect trainer to run just because he entered while the horse was sound. I mean some things do go wrong with horses before race time. I do agree though that no one should scratch just because they think they won't win.
A lot of those scratches are not sick scratches, they're horses who were entered for 2 days in a row and the trainer selected the 'best spot'. That is certainly something that can be avoided.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:45 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by johnhannibalsmith
You aren't the first person to think that way. And not surprisingly, some of them were running the track. Problem is, it just doesn't work as simply as you make it out to be. I'm sure you know that. Sure, you can take away stalls or deprive them altogether, but at some point, it becomes self-defeating if your whole beef is lack of entrants participating.

I dont think its rocket science...just don't enter if you don't plan on running. What's so hard about that?

My beef isnt lack of entrants...its the entering and not running stuff.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:51 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Stillriledup
I dont think its rocket science...just don't enter if you don't plan on running. What's so hard about that?

My beef isnt lack of entrants...its the entering and not running stuff.
This means nothing. Give me your list of penalties as the guy running the track. You mean if you are in charge, you are going to stand up and say "don't enter if you don't plan on running" and that's your non-rocket-scientific solution to your problem here? And yes, your beef is the lack of entrants that are participating (which is what I actually typed), as in, entrants that aren't running. You just left part of what I said out and then re-stated what I did say differently. From that post, I have to assume that you realize, as I supposed, that you actually recognize that you have no answer other than some vague "penalty if you were in charge".
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:56 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by johnhannibalsmith
This means nothing. Give me your list of penalties as the guy running the track. You mean if you are in charge, you are going to stand up and say "don't enter if you don't plan on running" and that's your non-rocket-scientific solution to your problem here? And yes, your beef is the lack of entrants that are participating (which is what I actually typed), as in, entrants that aren't running. You just left part of what I said out and then re-stated what I did say differently. From that post, I have to assume that you realize, as I supposed, that you actually recognize that you have no answer other than some vague "penalty if you were in charge".
I dont know how i would 'fix' that issue, if i was in charge, i'd have to think about it, but right now, i'm open to suggestions.

You have any?
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:01 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by johnhannibalsmith
You aren't the first person to think that way. And not surprisingly, some of them were running the track. Problem is, it just doesn't work as simply as you make it out to be. I'm sure you know that. Sure, you can take away stalls or deprive them altogether, but at some point, it becomes self-defeating if your whole beef is lack of entrants participating.
Why don't we have this problem anywhere else, you only see this amount of scratches at AQU, BEL, and SAR. I guess the reason is that they let the trainers get away with it.

Pick any other track, OAK, KEE, CD, TAM, GP, SA, DMR, HOL, CRC, DEL, WBN, AP you name any other venue and you don't have this scratch problem.

Last edited by SandyW; 04-11-2013 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:07 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Stillriledup
I dont know how i would 'fix' that issue, if i was in charge, i'd have to think about it, but right now, i'm open to suggestions.

You have any?
I'm waiting for you to come up with something that works effectively. I think most of the management teams in racing are all ears. As I said, there is no simple answer, no black and white policy that will deal with the problem effectively in all situations. The rules of racing aren't designed to bestow the "man/woman in charge of the racetrack" with the authority to create penalties for perceived affronts to the game willy nilly. The methods that those people do have are pretty limited, denial and exclusion being about all there really is and even those aren't always ironclad rights/powers.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SandyW
Why don't we have this problem anywhere else, you only see this amount of scratches at AQU, BEL, and SAR. I guess the reason is that they let the trainers get away with it.

Pick any other track, OAK, KEE, CD, TAM, GP, SA, DMR, HOL, CRC, DEL, WBN you name any other venue and you don't have this scratch problem.
Try Pimlico

with regard to NY - it's early spring and they just started running on the turf last week - give it some time.
The Bel turf fields will be full
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:20 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SandyW
Why don't we have this problem anywhere else, you only see this amount of scratches at AQU, BEL, and SAR. I guess the reason is that they let the trainers get away with it.

Pick any other track, OAK, KEE, CD, TAM, GP, SA, DMR, HOL, CRC, DEL, WBN you name any other venue and you don't have this scratch problem.
Of course the problem exists elsewhere - particularly at places that have many live racing days and an insufficient on-site/local horse population. Take a look at Turf Paradise - the home of get to seven for super wagering by any means necessary and then watch the obvious fillers vet scratch out. I'm pretty sure that 'mountainman' has written about this subject specifically and repeatedly in West Virginia.

Naturally, some places are going to be better than others and the reasons are many, including but not limited to "what they let trainers get away with". If you are a marquee meet with many more applicants than stalls available, it's a whole lot easier to get shitty with someone that routinely scratches and trim stalls or deprive them next year or whatever it is that sends the message to everyone. If you need every warm body you can wrangle up to make a meet, it gets a little tougher to give a guy or gal a reason to not show up if there as a preferrable alternative anyway and you still rely on those horses, even if the guy/gal is a pain in the ass.
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Old 04-11-2013, 10:12 PM   #15
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Lots of horses are in transit from other tracks GP, Tampa, FG etc. Some aren't ready yet from the winter lay off. Belmont just cleared out a bunch of stalls that were used for the winter trainers so the trainers that went south with their horses can start shipping in around April 15th. There will be plenty of full fields soon.
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