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Old 04-04-2013, 01:37 PM   #46
Tom
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The trouble is, it wasn't broke, but CD "fixed" it anyways.
I think if I owned the filly, and saw that commanding performance, I would be thinking Derby, but now, no such luck. I don't think going in to that race it was clear she could handle the Derby, but now.....we will never know because CD is run by nitwits.

Don't the FANS lose in this case?

Support the Illinois Derby - bet it heavy, and no bets on any CD tracks that day.
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:14 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
The trouble is, it wasn't broke, but CD "fixed" it anyways.
I think if I owned the filly, and saw that commanding performance, I would be thinking Derby, but now, no such luck. I don't think going in to that race it was clear she could handle the Derby, but now.....we will never know because CD is run by nitwits.

Don't the FANS lose in this case?

Support the Illinois Derby - bet it heavy, and no bets on any CD tracks that day.
I have mixed opinions on the filly issue, but I was surprised/disappointed about the Illinois Derby being excluded.

I have no idea of the politics involved, but including or excluding that race means a lot to that race.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:52 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Robert Fischer
but I was surprised/disappointed about the Illinois Derby being excluded.

I have no idea of the politics involved, but including or excluding that race means a lot to that race.
Anyone who thinks the exclusion of the Illinois Derby from the new points system for the KD wasn't "personal" between CDI(mainly Arlington and Dick D) and Hawthorne, is a fool. I would have liked to see Hawthorne use some imagination of their own after being dealt this hand. They did hike the purse for the IL Derby, but I would have liked to see them offer a sizable bonus, to the winner of the IL Derby, if that horse goes on and wins any of the triple crown races, or some other incentives like that to get horses to enter the race.
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:44 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
The trouble is, it wasn't broke, but CD "fixed" it anyways.
I think if I owned the filly, and saw that commanding performance, I would be thinking Derby, but now, no such luck. I don't think going in to that race it was clear she could handle the Derby, but now.....we will never know because CD is run by nitwits.

Don't the FANS lose in this case?

Support the Illinois Derby - bet it heavy, and no bets on any CD tracks that day.
How can any sane person possibly have this opinion? It was INCREDIBLY broke. Under the old system, you'd have the top 3 finishers in last years BC Juv, an abysmal, glorified allowance race containing horses who couldn't even sniff the top 15 or 20 in a Derby field, as automatically qualifying entrants for the Derby gate.

The new system is certainly far from perfect and needs tweaking, but to imply that the old system was not broke is beyond laughable. Their handling of the Illinois Derby was undoubtedly petty, but overall has a very minor impact on the integrity of the system. Overall, with all of those things in context, it does a FAR better job of putting horses who are likely to do well in the Derby in the Derby gate than the old system did.
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:49 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Tread
How can any sane person possibly have this opinion? It was INCREDIBLY broke. Under the old system, you'd have the top 3 finishers in last years BC Juv, an abysmal, glorified allowance race containing horses who couldn't even sniff the top 15 or 20 in a Derby field, as automatically qualifying entrants for the Derby gate.

The new system is certainly far from perfect and needs tweaking, but to imply that the old system was not broke is beyond laughable. Their handling of the Illinois Derby was undoubtedly petty, but overall has a very minor impact on the integrity of the system. Overall, with all of those things in context, it does a FAR better job of putting horses who are likely to do well in the Derby in the Derby gate than the old system did.

When CD has been "petty", it tells you right there just how bad of a system this is. What next? They get mad at Stronach and decide the CA or FL races don't count? Maybe Keeneland can pay them to only accept Keeneland grads into the field. It goes to the very heart of the integrity of the system and CD that they ruined one of the biggest races at a competitor's track due to their business disagreements.

I also have no idea what people think was so wrong about the previous fields. Just what great horses were sitting healthy on the sidelines while "glorified allowance horses" were running? And to flip it around, would some Derby winners have made the field under this system?

This is nothing more than a power play by Churchill. When something needs fixing in racing, we hear about it. Usually for about 20 years before baby steps towards the fix commences. No one was uttering a word about how unfair or broken the old system was. The only thing that was broken was the silly "pick your post" draw which had the total opposite effect, taking away all the drama from the actual post draw.
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:50 PM   #51
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The graded earnings system was not only worse than this initial flawed incarnation of the points format just in terms of Derby qualification, but it also enticed tracks to cut purses for older horses in order to puff up the Derby prep purses. As if racing needed to encourage breeders/owners/trainers even more than it currently does to produce early-peaking horses that have short careers.

Santa Anita was able to reduce the SA Derby back down to $750,000 this year. They'd pumped it up to $1 million last year in part because they didn't want their big prep to be worth less toward Ky Derby qualification than the Delta Jackpot (G3 2YO) or Sunland Derby (G3).

I'm hardly convinced that Derby Fever is really a good thing for the sport. Racing needs to re-establish the value of older horses-- aka, the best horses.
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Old 04-04-2013, 07:25 PM   #52
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I'm hardly convinced that Derby Fever is really a good thing for the sport. Racing needs to re-establish the value of older horses-- aka, the best horses.
Was researching the Triple Crown handle on another thread - the Kentucky Derby's handle last year exceeded the entire Breeders Cup card. All of the races over both days.

I grew up in the day when the fall races meant something (Forego/Honest Pleasure; Seattle Slew/Affirmed; Affirmed/Spectacular Bid; etc.). Are we kidding ourselves about older horses? Do any of the current "old" horses rise to the level of the mighty Forego or the 4 year old Seattle Slew or Affirmed?
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Old 04-04-2013, 07:48 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Fager Fan
When CD has been "petty", it tells you right there just how bad of a system this is. What next? They get mad at Stronach and decide the CA or FL races don't count? Maybe Keeneland can pay them to only accept Keeneland grads into the field. It goes to the very heart of the integrity of the system and CD that they ruined one of the biggest races at a competitor's track due to their business disagreements.

I also have no idea what people think was so wrong about the previous fields. Just what great horses were sitting healthy on the sidelines while "glorified allowance horses" were running? And to flip it around, would some Derby winners have made the field under this system?

This is nothing more than a power play by Churchill. When something needs fixing in racing, we hear about it. Usually for about 20 years before baby steps towards the fix commences. No one was uttering a word about how unfair or broken the old system was. The only thing that was broken was the silly "pick your post" draw which had the total opposite effect, taking away all the drama from the actual post draw.
Were you in a coma all of last year or something? There was a HUGE amount of discussion over the graded earnings process because Trinniberg made the field, and how terrible the system was because of that.
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Old 04-04-2013, 07:53 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Tread
Were you in a coma all of last year or something? There was a HUGE amount of discussion over the graded earnings process because Trinniberg made the field, and how terrible the system was because of that.
Trinniberg did win a Breeders' Cup race. There have been far worse Derby entrants.
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:10 PM   #55
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Trinniberg did win a Breeders' Cup race. There have been far worse Derby entrants.
He's only competed once beyond 7f: the Ky Derby. He had no business being in the race.
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:16 PM   #56
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Trinniberg did win a Breeders' Cup race. There have been far worse Derby entrants.
I won't disagree that there have been worse Derby entrants but you might as well add that he helped force the pace for 7f while ignoring his fade to 17th place or that his BC win was the Sprint.

They ran a horse that had never raced beyond 7f in a 10f race and the predictible happened. Was he the worst starter ever? Probably not. But that doesn't excuse the fact that he shouldn't have been in the gate and wouldn't have under today's rules.

I wasn't a fan of the changes when they came out but I've been persuaded by events. It would be great if they could make accomodations for a filly and the Illinois Derby exclusion was petty. But I think you'll see better quality in the starting gate under this system than you would have under graded stakes earnings.
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:02 PM   #57
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Why don't we just run the race with no pace horses. It will be renamed The Plodders' Derby.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:58 AM   #58
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Why don't we just run the race with no pace horses. It will be renamed The Plodders' Derby.
Yeah, because of course there's been such a problem over the past few decades with slow paces in the Ky Derby and frontrunners having all of the best of it. We need more horses like Trinniberg to act as the 45-second half-mile pace bunny.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:15 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Tread
Under the old system, you'd have the top 3 finishers in last years BC Juv, an abysmal, glorified allowance race containing horses who couldn't even sniff the top 15 or 20 in a Derby field, as automatically qualifying entrants for the Derby gate.
When has that ever happened?
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:38 PM   #60
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If you win the BC Juvenile, Delta Jackpot or the Cashcall Futurity, you could pretty much just train right up to the Derby if you wanted to. I'm not saying it'd be wise, but, theoretically you could. I'm probably one of the few people who believe the Kentucky Derby is overrated to begin with.
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