Lasix:Fact and Myth

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by Chaka26

Thanks halv for detailed reply. My reply is not personal though i use the word "you"

If theres no stimulating effect why do the horses ears stand up like they do?

Regarding the lighter equal faster principle -thats assuming all things are exactly equal but with horses they are all different weights strengths sizes shapes and ability

If the weight principle is the key to success why spend all this time handicapping and just bet the lightest horse to win? I doubt there would be much success

How much weight difference is there between horses in a given race?
anyone know what weights for upcoming belmont horses range?

Why shouldnt bettors ask horse weights be listed on program if makes that much of difference? Why does no one talk about it?

I know its cost prohibitive but i would like to see pics of the horses in the programs so in past performances online you could see look back to see if horse is muscling up, losing/ gaining too much /too little weight or just growing as expected between races. I think it would be beneficial to the new fan seeing a picture vs just text stats and a name.
They might see a marking they like and start to,follow that horse. Much needs to be done getting new people in the game. I would create a generic program for the fans with limited info focusing on race finish, surface and race style of horse next to their name and pic. there is a lot to,overcome promoting due to the lack of races a horse can run.

On extremely windy days lasix weight loss would theoretically be a disadvantage- would it not? where a horse runs majority of the race into,the wind...after 90 seconds running into wind probably would theoretically be more drained for final stretch running with tailwind than a horse who didnt lose weight

Re: the feel better equal performance enhancing
If a healthy horse runs 12 second furlongs all day every day then gets injured and can only run 12.3 without pain meds. Given pain meds horse immediately can run back to normal 12 second furlongs but no better

How is that performance enhancing? All it did was allow
Horse to return to normal performance level

A healthy horse is going to perform better than injured horse is common sense so why do people penalize the injured horses with a stigma by resetting their par level to the subpar injured level?
Semantically its performance enhancing because the time improved from 12.3 to 12 but you are comparing apples and oranges -a healthy time vs injured time
Thus the phrase "back to normal"
Pre injury normal time 12 sec
Post injury time 12 sec
Where is the enhanced performance?

Are you going to not take aspirin for your next headache because it would be enhancing your performance making you feel better?
You wear tennis shoes or dress shoes right? Dont they enhance your performance getting thru the day better than if you wore nothing?

one could argue flaws of lighter=faster physics principle by removing the shoes -making you lighter- would not make you faster depending in the surface you run over. Like rocks, gravel, hot tar etc

Of course if one were removing oversized clown shoes one would probably be faster over any surface without them.

you get it When I trained I had a scale for horses. I weighed them every morning prior to and after training. And prior to and after races. I also pulled their temps every morning. You would be utterly amazed at how much a horses weight fluctuates twenty to thirty pounds. The amount of weight a horse drops from a race, from my experience, if more directly related to the temperature at the time. And the percentage of drop from horse to horse was all over the charts. The speed in which they regained the dropped weight from races was also all over the charts. The average was two to three days. But it was more dependent on their eating not their drinking. Giving a horse different water than they are used to drinking throws them off their water more than anything else. An example would be shipping a horse to another town to race. They often times take days to start drinking that water at any substantial amount. Hell I've had some horses that refused to drink from a black colored pail. Something about the dark pail. They'd drink fine from a lighter colored pail.

[whodoyoulike]

Originally Posted by chadk66

lasix costs $20. it's trivial. Like I've said, this myth regarding lasix has slowly developed over the past twenty five years. It's like anything else, you keep saying something long enough sooner or later everyone believes you. Handicappers started complaining on a national level about lasix use so they legalized it everywhere to appease everybody. So now there is a level playing field and still people are complaining. It's ridiculous. I rarely ever see track records being broken. I can't even tell you the last time I saw one. Some are half a century old. Yet lasix is supposed to be this amazing PED yet horses can't break track records on the magic juice.

I've seen them broken not as frequently as maybe before the last 10 years but, Bayern did set a new track record using Lasix at Parx late last year.

I personally dislike the extensive and abusive use of PED's because horses can't talk except to a few of us. People seem to ignore the collateral damage of possibly crippling or killing the horses, or jockeys and cheating the bettors and the other owners. The ones not harmed are the vets, trainers (sort of) and the race tracks.

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by whodoyoulike

I've seen them broken not as frequently as maybe before the last 10 years but, Bayern did set a new track record using Lasix at Parx late last year.

I personally dislike the extensive and abusive use of PED's because horses can't talk except to a few of us. People seem to ignore the collateral damage of possibly crippling or killing the horses, or jockeys and cheating the bettors and the other owners. The ones not harmed are the vets, trainers (sort of) and the race tracks.

I agree, thankfully lasix isn't a PED.

[cj]

Tracks are much deeper these days, mostly for safety reasons. That is why you don't see track records broken very often.

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by chadk66

I agree, thankfully lasix isn't a PED.

Yeah horses just run faster with raceday lasix than without it. Its absolutely does help most horses run faster for whatever reason.

Allan

[Robert Goren]

Originally Posted by chadk66

lasix costs $20. it's trivial. Like I've said, this myth regarding lasix has slowly developed over the past twenty five years. It's like anything else, you keep saying something long enough sooner or later everyone believes you. Handicappers started complaining on a national level about lasix use so they legalized it everywhere to appease everybody. So now there is a level playing field and still people are complaining. It's ridiculous. I rarely ever see track records being broken. I can't even tell you the last time I saw one. Some are half a century old. Yet lasix is supposed to be this amazing PED yet horses can't break track records on the magic juice.

Track records get broke when the surface is right for them to be set. The way surface are maintained these days, no horse juiced or not should be close to one. They have figured out that surfaces that produce track records also produce injured horses. So we do not get those surfaces anymore, which is a good thing.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by Chaka26

Thanks halv for detailed reply. My reply is not personal though i use the word "you"

If theres no stimulating effect why do the horses ears stand up like they do?

Regarding the lighter equal faster principle -thats assuming all things are exactly equal but with horses they are all different weights strengths sizes shapes and ability

If the weight principle is the key to success why spend all this time handicapping and just bet the lightest horse to win? I doubt there would be much success

How much weight difference is there between horses in a given race?
anyone know what weights for upcoming belmont horses range?

Why shouldnt bettors ask horse weights be listed on program if makes that much of difference? Why does no one talk about it?

I know its cost prohibitive but i would like to see pics of the horses in the programs so in past performances online you could see look back to see if horse is muscling up, losing/ gaining too much /too little weight or just growing as expected between races. I think it would be beneficial to the new fan seeing a picture vs just text stats and a name.
They might see a marking they like and start to,follow that horse. Much needs to be done getting new people in the game. I would create a generic program for the fans with limited info focusing on race finish, surface and race style of horse next to their name and pic. there is a lot to,overcome promoting due to the lack of races a horse can run.

On extremely windy days lasix weight loss would theoretically be a disadvantage- would it not? where a horse runs majority of the race into,the wind...after 90 seconds running into wind probably would theoretically be more drained for final stretch running with tailwind than a horse who didnt lose weight

Re: the feel better equal performance enhancing
If a healthy horse runs 12 second furlongs all day every day then gets injured and can only run 12.3 without pain meds. Given pain meds horse immediately can run back to normal 12 second furlongs but no better

How is that performance enhancing? All it did was allow
Horse to return to normal performance level

A healthy horse is going to perform better than injured horse is common sense so why do people penalize the injured horses with a stigma by resetting their par level to the subpar injured level?
Semantically its performance enhancing because the time improved from 12.3 to 12 but you are comparing apples and oranges -a healthy time vs injured time
Thus the phrase "back to normal"
Pre injury normal time 12 sec
Post injury time 12 sec
Where is the enhanced performance?

Are you going to not take aspirin for your next headache because it would be enhancing your performance making you feel better?
You wear tennis shoes or dress shoes right? Dont they enhance your performance getting thru the day better than if you wore nothing?

one could argue flaws of lighter=faster physics principle by removing the shoes -making you lighter- would not make you faster depending in the surface you run over. Like rocks, gravel, hot tar etc

Of course if one were removing oversized clown shoes one would probably be faster over any surface without them.

Lighter is only faster per individual. A horse with a certain ability that is running with less weight has the same musculature and should theoretically run faster. But a lighter horse with less musculature will not run faster than another horse just because of the weight differential. Remeber what I said. THE SAME FORCE APPLIED TO TWO OBJECTS WHERE ONE WEIGHS LESS THAN THE OTHER, THE OBJECT OF LOWER WEIGHT WILL ACCELERATE AND OVERCOME INERTIA FASTER THAN THE HEAVIER OBJECT. In other words, weight itself is not the relevant factor, force is.

Your question about weight is equally irrelvant. A lighter horse with the equivalent force to a heavier horse will run faster because that is physics. Posting weight doesn't tell you the horses natural ability to accelerate and maintain speed. Force and speed are implied by looking at race times.

Regardless of wind speed, a horse running in the front into a headwind is at a disadvantage, and that is irrelevant of weight. A horse running under cover is at an advantage. Running position and cover is the key, not weight.

Performance enhancing has a variety of meanings. A horse getting better feed or supplements may perform better. A horse having better fitting horseshoes will perform better. If you don't believe me, put on a pair of ill-fitting shoes and go for a run. Reducing inflammation will allow a horse to run to the best of it's inherent ability. All of those things are performance enhancing in a generic sense. But things like sterioids or amphetamines are performance enhancing it a different way. They add muscle and increase heart-lung efficiency in a way that isn't natural.

If you want to argue that anything that allows a horse to run to the best of its inherent ability is performance enhancing, you'd be correct in a generic way and you'd start a healthy argument between those who believe horses should run drug-free and those who believe that just like human athletes, certain therapeutics should be allowed.

At some point the physics argument becomes absurd. Shoes weigh a few ounces each. Removing the shoes won't make a nag run substantially faster. And perhaps the stickers on shoes will incrase grip and traction in a way that makes them an advantage over no shoes. Think of this. If you played tennis in street shoes your grip or foot comfort would be compromised over real tennis shoes.

I would say you might be way overthinking this. Aspirin is performance enhancing to you because you can function at a higher level with out a headache. In horseracing the rules are clear whether or not you believe they are arbitrary. Banamine above 20 ng/mL is a violation whether or even though all it does is reduce inflammation. If that sounds wrong, your argument is with RCI.

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

Lighter is only faster per individual. A horse with a certain ability that is running with less weight has the same musculature and should theoretically run faster. But a lighter horse with less musculature will not run faster than another horse just because of the weight differential. Remeber what I said. THE SAME FORCE APPLIED TO TWO OBJECTS WHERE ONE WEIGHS LESS THAN THE OTHER, THE OBJECT OF LOWER WEIGHT WILL ACCELERATE AND OVERCOME INERTIA FASTER THAN THE HEAVIER OBJECT. In other words, weight itself is not the relevant factor, force is.

Your question about weight is equally irrelvant. A lighter horse with the equivalent force to a heavier horse will run faster because that is physics. Posting weight doesn't tell you the horses natural ability to accelerate and maintain speed. Force and speed are implied by looking at race times.

Regardless of wind speed, a horse running in the front into a headwind is at a disadvantage, and that is irrelevant of weight. A horse running under cover is at an advantage. Running position and cover is the key, not weight.

Performance enhancing has a variety of meanings. A horse getting better feed or supplements may perform better. A horse having better fitting horseshoes will perform better. If you don't believe me, put on a pair of ill-fitting shoes and go for a run. Reducing inflammation will allow a horse to run to the best of it's inherent ability. All of those things are performance enhancing in a generic sense. But things like sterioids or amphetamines are performance enhancing it a different way. They add muscle and increase heart-lung efficiency in a way that isn't natural.

If you want to argue that anything that allows a horse to run to the best of its inherent ability is performance enhancing, you'd be correct in a generic way and you'd start a healthy argument between those who believe horses should run drug-free and those who believe that just like human athletes, certain therapeutics should be allowed.

At some point the physics argument becomes absurd. Shoes weigh a few ounces each. Removing the shoes won't make a nag run substantially faster. And perhaps the stickers on shoes will incrase grip and traction in a way that makes them an advantage over no shoes. Think of this. If you played tennis in street shoes your grip or foot comfort would be compromised over real tennis shoes.

I would say you might be way overthinking this. Aspirin is performance enhancing to you because you can function at a higher level with out a headache. In horseracing the rules are clear whether or not you believe they are arbitrary. Banamine above 20 ng/mL is a violation whether or even though all it does is reduce inflammation. If that sounds wrong, your argument is with RCI.

Your explanation of this is excellent. We got off on the wrong foot and I apologize for that. I think we're in the same court when it comes to the majority of things horse related. We won't agree on everything but the majority of things I suspect.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by chadk66

Your explanation of this is excellent. We got off on the wrong foot and I apologize for that. I think we're in the same court when it comes to the majority of things horse related. We won't agree on everything but the majority of things I suspect.

Thanks for saying that. The great thing about the forums is the ability to offer all sorts of information and perspective. I enjoy being a part of it.

[biggestal99]

Gulfstream s going to run some non raceday lasix 2 yearold maiden for 65k in their next condition book, wonder if they will get enough entries.

Allan