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Old 10-05-2018, 06:36 PM   #31
Robert Fischer
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Beyer is still sharp.

Nice to hear an honest opinion.

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Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
"Boring" Andy Beyer gives his opinion on the Rainbow-6. Please fast forward to the 16:00 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0woTTMGFsZs&t=1368s
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Old 10-06-2018, 12:47 PM   #32
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Beyer is still sharp.

Nice to hear an honest opinion.
The problem with Beyer's analogy is to most bettors, ALL bets are crack. He doesn't actually want the racetracks to stop selling bets that are bad for small players. He just wants them to only sell versions of them where he can exploit and collect the losers' and problem gamblers' money.
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Old 10-06-2018, 01:46 PM   #33
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The problem with Beyer's analogy is to most bettors, ALL bets are crack. He doesn't actually want the racetracks to stop selling bets that are bad for small players. He just wants them to only sell versions of them where he can exploit and collect the losers' and problem gamblers' money.
I think you're just deflecting the conversation or making up imaginary arguments in your head, but if you're serious and you really feel bad about this, you should quit wagering on horse racing, playing poker, and participating in any kind of gambling that isn't against the house.
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Old 10-06-2018, 02:18 PM   #34
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I think you're just deflecting the conversation or making up imaginary arguments in your head, but if you're serious and you really feel bad about this, you should quit wagering on horse racing, playing poker, and participating in any kind of gambling that isn't against the house.
No.

My feeling is that it's OK to exploit small betters, but we give up the standing to make that argument against what racetracks are doing.
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Old 10-06-2018, 02:29 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
The problem with Beyer's analogy is to most bettors, ALL bets are crack. He doesn't actually want the racetracks to stop selling bets that are bad for small players. He just wants them to only sell versions of them where he can exploit and collect the losers' and problem gamblers' money.
If Beyer is mainly interested in "exploiting" the losing gamblers, then...why has he spent a large part of the last 40 years trying to "educate" them?
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Old 10-06-2018, 07:42 PM   #36
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No.

My feeling is that it's OK to exploit small betters, but we give up the standing to make that argument against what racetracks are doing.
"Markets are at heart a predatory wealth concentration mechanism for separating the herd from its money. They allow insiders to feed off the greed and fear of a momentum-chasing majority that is always fully invested at tops and fully liquid at bottoms. While the majority always hangs on for too long, giving back their erstwhile gains and more, insiders take a contrarian stance and reap the rewards. While some call this immoral, it is better described a amoral, and is no more unnatural than any of the many predator/prey relationships that exist within and between other species. While we generally prefer not to think of human societies in such terms, we delude ourselves to think that survival of the fittest does not apply to us. As individuals, we must be proactive rather than reactive, and we must not be complacent as the complacent become prey." - Nicole Foss


Welcome to the jungle. It's a tough racket.
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Old 10-07-2018, 11:52 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
The problem with Beyer's analogy is to most bettors, ALL bets are crack. He doesn't actually want the racetracks to stop selling bets that are bad for small players. He just wants them to only sell versions of them where he can exploit and collect the losers' and problem gamblers' money.
What a completely jaded and erroneous viewpoint. Beyer has been a big voice for the bettors ever since he started his work in the media. You clearly do not know Andy or you would not make such outlandish comments.
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Old 10-07-2018, 12:12 PM   #38
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What a completely jaded and erroneous viewpoint. Beyer has been a big voice for the bettors ever since he started his work in the media. You clearly do not know Andy or you would not make such outlandish comments.
I love Beyer. But he is not "standing up for the bettors" here. He is standing up for a small class of pick 6 bettors (probably less than 4 percent) who make money on the bet.

For the vast majority of pick 6 players, the Rainbow 6 is either no issue or a cheaper bet. It isn't "crack" except in the same way all bets are crack.
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Old 10-07-2018, 02:11 PM   #39
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I love Beyer. But he is not "standing up for the bettors" here. He is standing up for a small class of pick 6 bettors (probably less than 4 percent) who make money on the bet.

For the vast majority of pick 6 players, the Rainbow 6 is either no issue or a cheaper bet. It isn't "crack" except in the same way all bets are crack.
Beyer stands up for fairness not a small class of P-6 bettors. There is nothing fair about the Rainbow 6. The fact that you can get in for $.20 a way doesn't make it a good bet for anybody. People who make money on any bet is a low percentage, so I guess commenting about any bet would be a selfish act on his part.
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Old 10-07-2018, 05:28 PM   #40
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The Pick-5 has become the premier multi-race bet, - save big jackpot rainbow payout days.

P5 is still slightly too expensive for the general public, even with the 50c minimum. No need for $2 minimum. Can be fruitful with a properly funded ticket and a few opinions on a good card.

P6 has kind of passed the torch to the p5 for most racing days.
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Old 10-08-2018, 04:12 PM   #41
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Beyer stands up for fairness not a small class of P-6 bettors. There is nothing fair about the Rainbow 6. The fact that you can get in for $.20 a way doesn't make it a good bet for anybody. People who make money on any bet is a low percentage, so I guess commenting about any bet would be a selfish act on his part.
If a racetrack offers a bet that has too high an effective takeout, DON'T BET IT. They offer show bets. Do you bet them? The takeout includes triple the breakage, which usually puts it well over 25 percent.

Nowhere is it written that racetracks, or any form of gambling enterprise, are required to offer bets that any particular player can make money on. Most players are losing players. 96 percent or more, really. If they have fun playing the pick 6 for 20 cents with the possibility of making 300 grand, that's worth something even if the tiny percentage of players who actually can make money at the track can't bet it to their advantage.

The casinos, state lotteries, football books, and yes, racetracks, are filled with bets that people can never beat long term. They are all crack to the compulsive gambler, but so are the bets that a small number of people can bet long term. None of it is outrageous.

If Andy Beyer and a few pick 6 players can't make a profit, well, get me the world's smallest violin. They can go find some other bet to play where maybe they can make a profit. Horse racing never promised them a rose garden.

ANY track's marketing strategy will be a combination of bets offered to attract serious players (such as the 14 percent takeout player's pick 5 we have in California) and other bets offered to attract casual bettors (show pools, the rainbow 6). And there is seriously nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
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Old 10-08-2018, 11:41 PM   #42
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If a racetrack offers a bet that has too high an effective takeout, DON'T BET IT. They offer show bets. Do you bet them? The takeout includes triple the breakage, which usually puts it well over 25 percent.

Nowhere is it written that racetracks, or any form of gambling enterprise, are required to offer bets that any particular player can make money on. Most players are losing players. 96 percent or more, really. If they have fun playing the pick 6 for 20 cents with the possibility of making 300 grand, that's worth something even if the tiny percentage of players who actually can make money at the track can't bet it to their advantage.

The casinos, state lotteries, football books, and yes, racetracks, are filled with bets that people can never beat long term. They are all crack to the compulsive gambler, but so are the bets that a small number of people can bet long term. None of it is outrageous.

If Andy Beyer and a few pick 6 players can't make a profit, well, get me the world's smallest violin. They can go find some other bet to play where maybe they can make a profit. Horse racing never promised them a rose garden.

ANY track's marketing strategy will be a combination of bets offered to attract serious players (such as the 14 percent takeout player's pick 5 we have in California) and other bets offered to attract casual bettors (show pools, the rainbow 6). And there is seriously nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
Nice rant. Doesn't justify your Beyer comments regarding his intentions.

Of course you would think that it's a good idea for a track to offer bets that only morons would play because there are morons who go to the track. I guess racetracks aren't constrained by any ethical barriers but you're OK with that too. Thank God there are people like Beyer willing to call out the people misbehaving.
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Old 10-11-2018, 02:20 AM   #43
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R6 does tie up money, reducing churn, reducing revenue. But when the pool gets large after multiple carryovers, it is something the track can advertise to the casual fans and general public, generating interest for individual days while the pool is still large. Maybe it works as a type of loss leader, losing money due to loss of churn while building up, but then recovering those losses with more general interest in the overall product until the pool is taken down.

I agree that track management maybe aren't the most brilliant business operators in the business universe, but I also agree that they certainly are not morons that don't know how to read P&L statements. The numbers must crunch somewhere, somehow.

As good a bet as the P5 is at most tracks, it has very little advertising value in generating interest with the casual fan and general public. Even guaranteed pools don't have advertising value to those that don't have some amount of gambling acumen. However, R6 carryover pools of $2,000,000 makes sense to everybody that sees it. There is $2,000,000 to be paid out to one lucky winner. And if nobody wins it today, it'll be even more tomorrow. Everybody, regardless of how little knowledge of horse racing they have, understands that.
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