Saratoga Late Pick 5 OFF Sunday

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by alhattab

It might help if NYRA publicly stated that their actions- given the timing of the announcement- were designed to protect the large majority of bettors based on their judgement that a large portion of the public “may not have known”. This would at least illustrate how NYRA believes it appropriately applied the rules. Instead we are left to debate it amongst ourselves.

I think everyone is speculating a little. On thing is certain, this shows they have to either follow the rules to the letter and deal with the backlash over the fans that didn't know, improve the rules, or delay the race in cases like this (and eat the handle loss).

I'm more of a vertical bettor (thank God).

This is just an observation.

This game is ridiculously difficult without these issues. Given the potential for getting stuck with a post time favorite you keyed against, getting way less value because other people are being put on the horse you singled that is now the post time favorite, dealing with these late surface changes issues, and competing with CAWs, imo you have to be a little bit nuts or masochistic to play horizontals other than maybe a double or pick 3 on a beautiful day.

[AskinHaskin]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

As for the rule, here it is.

Pick Four, Pick Five, and Grand Slam-races off the turf
When the condition of the turf course(s) warrants a change of racing surface to a non-turf course in any of the Pick Four or Pick Five races, and such change has not been known to the public before the close of wagering in any of those wagers, the changed leg(s) will be deemed an “all win” for wagering purposes. For the Grand Slam, the changed leg(s) will be deemed “no contest” for wagering purposes. If there is only one surface transfer in the sequence of the Pick Five the previous days’ carryovers are to be paid out. If more than one, then any previous carryover shall be carried over to the next day of the meet for the wager.

(* not directed at this "ScottJ" - I only borrowed his printed rule)


Why do you fools keep citing a "rule" which had zero to do with the scenario actually in place at Saratoga?

(it is akin to citing the Infield Fly Rule in a case where a ball bounced off the top of the centerfield wall)


(Before then largely protesting that said rule {which did NOT apply in the first place} "was not followed".)


It is indisputable that the change audibly announced X minutes/seconds prior to post time was "known" to the public at large before the close.... (more audible to those on track {whom some of you have mentioned} than to those watching on muted simulcast screens around the continent) (the pool size decreasing at a moment when CRW-type betting, and simo money pouring in, is typically making similar pools climb by leaps and bounds assures as much)



So the equation then becomes a question of:


A - let it run as a seeming Double

B - let the winning numbers (on all 5 races) determine who cashes

C - Cancel the wager


The absolute worst scenario would have been to let the winning numbers on all five races determine who cashed (envision 12-horse turf fields scratched down to X, for a race run on dirt, with the favorite not winning, as a general anticipated expectation). All who handicapped for a turf race instead faced with a dirt event. (that being the scenario which the not-relevant{-in-this-case} "rule" attempts to avoid)


So now we're down either a "double" or canceling the wager.


Applying common sense assures that when HANA's head cheerleader claims that the right thing to do would have been to cancel the wager, the only appropriate move was to let it run as a double.



You've solved your own collective lack of clarity/understanding.

[1st time lasix]

On Talking Horses…. Andy had head man of NYRA on. He said repeatedly that they “dropped the ball” and apologized numerous times to the pick five players. At least the egregious error was acknowledged.

[Jeff P]

Imo, I'm glad he did that.


-jp
.

[affirmedny]

Originally Posted by Track Phantom

.

Look who is involved in this situation:

1. Owners
2. Trainers
3. Jockeys
4. Track
5. CAW players
6. Non CAW players

Owners, trainers and jockeys are all whole in this situation since the purse distribution is unaffected.

Not if you had a great chance to win & had to scratch because of switch to dirt

[classhandicapper]

Now that we've heard from NYRA, IMO, horizontal players should be less concerned about what happened and more concerned about what changes are going to implemented so horseplayers can be confident they aren't trying to overcome disadvantages that exceed just the track take.

Are they going to have the technical ability to cancel the wager entirely and the power to do so?

Are they going to modify the rules so they can deal with situations like this adequately and then follow them?

Are they going to have permission to delay the race and give players more time to cancel and adjust their bets?

Other?

[Track Phantom]

Originally Posted by AskinHaskin

(* not directed at this "ScottJ" - I only borrowed his printed rule)

Why do you fools keep citing a "rule" which had zero to do with the scenario actually in place at Saratoga?

(it is akin to citing the Infield Fly Rule in a case where a ball bounced off the top of the centerfield wall)

I'm not following you. Unless I'm clueless here (which is possible), the rule reads as follows:

Pick Five
Condition of turf course warrants a change to non-turf in any of pick 5 races
Change NOT KNOWN to public in advance the turf-to-non-turf become ALL

The change WAS known to the public in advance of the close of betting. We have video/audio of it. So doesn't that mean they DO NOT change to ALL?

If you're going to debate how long in advance the public was notified being the issue, show that part to me in the rules which talks about the timing and method of notification.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Track Phantom

I'm not following you. Unless I'm clueless here (which is possible), the rule reads as follows:

Pick Five
Condition of turf course warrants a change to non-turf in any of pick 5 races
Change NOT KNOWN to public in advance the turf-to-non-turf become ALL

The change WAS known to the public in advance of the close of betting. We have video/audio of it. So doesn't that mean they DO NOT change to ALL?

If you're going to debate how long in advance the public was notified being the issue, show that part to me in the rules which talks about the timing and method of notification.

Nobody can follow him. He is clueless and seemingly obsessed with an organization that to my knowledge hasn't existed in several years. It may be the strangest obsession I've ever seen.

[Track Phantom]

Originally Posted by cj

Nobody can follow him. He is clueless and seemingly obsessed with an organization that to my knowledge hasn't existed in several years. It may be the strangest obsession I've ever seen.

It's like I'm living in a parallel universe. The decision makers (whoever it was) that made the off-the-turf races ALL in the p5 did not follow a written rule. Why do people think that is ok? How someone feels about a rule, or law, is irrelevant to having to abide by it.

It is such a slippery slope when subjectivity is allowed to muddy the water in this area.

[Robert Fischer]

I didn't re-listen to the president's comments, but on today's Talking Horses he may have made the claim today that the intent was to 'Refund', but that the Stewards instead made it go as an DD+3Alls. I'd have to listen more carefully to try to see if that's what I heard or what.


Either someone can explain that a DD+3Alls is an acceptable pick 5, or we happened to have an unacceptable outcome.

We aren't going to stop horse safety measures, we aren't going to stop raining, we aren't going to stop carding turf races.


something 'goofy' happens once or twice and then you should be able to go in and amend the rule or place a protocol that doesn't lead to a cascading failure.

[garyscpa]

What it means is that even if you know the rules the track may disregard them.

[Andy Asaro]

Twitter

[Pigpen]

Glad to see them seeding the p5 and I do not think they were trying to close the pool to keep the take out. I will say this, NYRA needs to get their sh*t together. This was unacceptable.

[PhantomOnTour]

Off turf again today.
Rain forecasted for this afternoon, and I suspect we won't see turf racing until next week at the earliest.

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/st...13996959641602

Is it true they are raising the takeout to 24% because they are seeding the pool? I assume the takeout is 15% normally.