David Milch Lost $100 Million at the Track

[Dark Horse]

I don't think Milch was addicted to gambling. What he became addicted to was losing. There is no addiction when there is great mental clarity, and he had repeatedly showcased his brilliant side. The question is if he, and every gambler, could maintain his mental clarity during a prolonged losing streak. If not, and his mounting losses suggest he could not, then a person's dark side can take over. As I said earlier, gambling is a perfect mirror. And what is seen in that mirror may be too dark for an individual to want to face and come to terms with. Milch didn't lose because of his brilliant side, but because he got sucked into a maelstrom of his own darkness. Had he not been addicted to the losing, he would have stepped away to regain his clarity. And with clarity regained, he would have been back at the controls, free to be brilliant.

[acorn54]

thaskalos you are, pace advantage's, "voice of reality". i have said that of you in a previous thread, glorifying the life of a gambler and i am saying it again.
keep up the good work!
a psychologist once said "man can justify anything".

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes, a lot of people lie...even to themselves. But lying to ourselves is one thing; BELIEVING our own lies is another.

My guess is that some people will lie on a forum like this because they don't want to admit defeat in an arena where others are claiming success. They know very well that they are losing and would probably even admit it in an environment where everyone else was claiming to be losing.

[Grits]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

My guess is that some people will lie on a forum like this because they don't want to admit defeat in an arena where others are claiming success. They know very well that they are losing and would probably even admit it in an environment where everyone else was claiming to be losing.

Indeed. Because. Misery loves company.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

I don't think Milch was addicted to gambling. What he became addicted to was losing. There is no addiction when there is great mental clarity, and he had repeatedly showcased his brilliant side. The question is if he, and every gambler, could maintain his mental clarity during a prolonged losing streak. If not, and his mounting losses suggest he could not, then a person's dark side can take over. As I said earlier, gambling is a perfect mirror. And what is seen in that mirror may be too dark for an individual to want to face and come to terms with. Milch didn't lose because of his brilliant side, but because he got sucked into a maelstrom of his own darkness. Had he not been addicted to the losing, he would have stepped away to regain his clarity. And with clarity regained, he would have been back at the controls, free to be brilliant.

The addiction is not to winning or losing, but to the action. He doesn't make a bet hoping to lose - he expects to win, even if the bet seems like he is undermining himself. As I posted earlier, it is the release of dopamine that the addict craves. The high comes from having significant stakes and rooting your bet. Ever see a guy root his horse when you can see it's going to get triple passed? Still looking for the rush. The addict rarely concedes victory is impossible. Ultimately, the addict needs bigger and bigger stakes and more and more action. The bigger the stakes, the greater the stimulation. Losing isn't the stimulus. Even when the addict loses a race, the thought that goes through his head is, I was close and it was bad luck or I got a bad ride. I'm due and I'll just bet more next time to recover my losses. Being broke is a temporary condition to the gambling addict and it doesn't panic them like it does a normal person. They figure sooner or later they'll be on top.

As an aside, I saw an interview with a world class poker player. He quipped, we measure our success by the number of times we've gone bust.

Suggesting that he was addicted to the losing otherwise he would have stepped away to regain his clarity makes no more sense than saying a clinically depressed person enjoys the depression otherwise they would snap out of it. Gambling addiction is behavioral and chemical and can be treated with cognitive therapy and anti-depressants (that alter brain chemistry). Handling addiction requires a firm commitment to want to change for sure, but many need additional help.

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by whodoyoulike

In an earlier post I mentioned that he lost more than $100 million because the writer probably didn't consider rebates. But, he probably lost over $500 million because of churn.

The article actually says he earned $100 million in three decades but lost $25 million at the track in 12 years, plus he owes the IRS $17 million: "Now a lawsuit, which was filed last year and is proceeding in Los Angeles Superior Court in Santa Monica, indicates that he lost $25 million from gambling between 2000 and 2011 alone. Colleagues estimate he has earned more than $100 million across his three-decade Hollywood career, but the lawsuit reveals he is left with $17 million in debts." But whatever, it's all a guess at this point. Once you owe the IRS $17 million, it's game over.

[Grits]

Rich, the majority of all addictions are behavioral, as Thask stated, a character flaw. And yes, they can be treated if one wants help. However, the rush, the dopamine release you speak of? Everything you've written for that matter....the action, etc? No one could've stated the danger of addiction better than this guy. Just to listen, is chilling. To realize how messed up he was inwardly, yet how easily, how normally, he moved between, slipping in and out of such horrific acts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vlk_sRU49TI

Same goes for a gambling addiction, one can be losing. Everything in their world collapsing, yet they remain stuck--day after day.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I'm sure that I'm in the minority as someone that a shrink somewhere could probably deduce has an "addictive personality", but for me the all-consuming drive wasn't in the rush from winning, but rather in the challenge it presented to the brain. The constant effort to improve. The eternal quest to get it right. Gotta do better. Can do better. Must be something that I missed.

I tend to get that way with a lot of things to my detriment. Work, women, sports, you name it. Handicapping and betting, more than any of those things I think, really gave me the challenge that my mind wanted. Something that could literally take up almost every functioning moment and the reality that there was no end on the path to improvement and success was always goint to be unattainable for me. No matter how well I did or how much fun I was having or whatever, there is always a next level to shoot for.

Counter-intuitively I suppose and contrary to almost everything posted on this topic, dealing with this character flaw is best accomplished for me by doing almost the opposite of what most suggest. Scrutinizing plays and strenuous record keeping and really making it some kind of structured endeavor like a job simply fed into that mindset that I can refine this effort into one precious metal after another.

Honestly what allowed me to shake the pounding pressure to achieve was to simply let it be fun again. To refuse all of the things, the self-imposed rules for 'success', a concept that I could not define and would never attain. Forget letting my brain run wild seeking out reasons for failure. What is the point if failure is the only thing it recognizes and acknowledges.

These days I bet very little comparatively. I enjoy handicapping and try my best but I go out of my way to take wins and losses with a grain of salt. I don't stew on what I did wrong. Is it a terrible idea for 99% of those that love to handicap and bet? Probably. But with all of this talk about what makes a handicapper an addict and what it is that paves the path down the rabbit hole, I figured I'd throw in my seven pesos as a different take. It isn't always the gambling that you get hooked on, the wins or the losses or the money, sometimes it's just the process that the brain craves to keep it fat and happy.

[pandy]

Absolutely. Most of us bet horses for fun and entertainment.

When I felt that I was perhaps becoming a compulsive gambler, it wasn't because I felt addicted to "action." It was because I would try to foolishly recoup my losses, usually called "chasing bets," which I believe is a common behavioral pattern of many compulsive gamblers. I didn't want to make another bet because I craved making bets, I wanted to win back the money I lost right away. That's not only compulsive, it's stupid, and it took the fun out of betting horses. Once I got back to only betting the horses that I went down to the track to bet in the first place, it was fun.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by Grits

Rich, the majority of all addictions are behavioral, as Thask stated, a character flaw. And yes, they can be treated if one wants help. However, the rush, the dopamine release you speak of? Everything you've written for that matter....the action, etc? No one could've stated the danger of addiction better than this guy. Just to listen, is chilling. To realize how messed up he was inwardly, yet how easily, how normally, he moved between, slipping in and out of such horrific acts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vlk_sRU49TI

Same goes for a gambling addiction, one can be losing. Everything in their world collapsing, yet they remain stuck--day after day.

Ted Bundy was sociopathic and psychopathic, which I suppose is highly understated as messed up inwardly. He didn't have a character flaw as much as he was miswired. He had no guilt about what he did when he did it. He felt no remorse. And when he killed he did achieve a high, and that is why he continued to repeat the behavior, in the end accelerating and taking greater chances. As the behavioral model predicts, the addict ultimately needs bigger and bigger doses of his "drug" to get off.

I said that addiction is behavioral and chemical. The behavior creates a good feeling that the addict wants to repeat and that is related to the dopamine release. So is the desire to want sex often (for most people in a certain age range). Think about it. If the behavior was negative for the addict, they'd stop. It has been successfully treated with cognitive therapy and anti-psychotics, which I've agree points to the fact it is behavioral and chemical. I'm not guessing about that, it's a fact.

In reading about AA, statistics show that as many people quit drinking on their own with no therapy as quit through the 12-step program. I'm sure the same is true with problem gamblers. But for quite a few people, just realizing the destructive behavior and stopping is not possible without help. It's great that there are people here who changed on their own, and I applaud them, but it isn't as viable for others.

At some point the addict may realize that they are engaging in negative behavior, but often the symptoms of withdrawal make it impossible to give up the addiction. By that point it is well beyond a character flaw and into a physical condition. You don't have to take my word for it. Ask a recovered addict how they felt when they were gambling and see if they don't talk about the high from the action. Ask them how they felt when they tried to stop.

You know who James Dobson is, right? I won't get into a long discussion, but that interview with Bundy was bullshit concocted by both Dobson and Bundy. Seriously, you're smart enough to know Ted Bundy wasn't a serial killer because he was addicted to pornography. Or that the elimination of pornography would result in a substantial reduction in crime, although that was precisely Dobson's position. Or that Bundy didn't get a high from killing and ever felt bad for his victims. It was heinous that Bundy was actually trying to blame his behavior on porn hours from execution.

This is a topic I've written about, I've done a lot of reading on, and I've interviewed a number of experts. I'm not claiming omniscience, but I have reason to try to understand addiction. One of the problems with the word addict is that is has become trivialized. I suppose there are ice cream addicts, but I'm not sure it's in the DSM.

Honestly, I don't care if someone thinks gambling addiction is the product of a weak mind. I have an informed opinion, and I'm happy to learn from anyone who has more real knowledge.

[Dark Horse]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

The addiction is not to winning or losing, but to the action. He doesn't make a bet hoping to lose - he expects to win, even if the bet seems like he is undermining himself. As I posted earlier, it is the release of dopamine that the addict craves.

It may seem that way, on the surface, but you merely describe an action junkie. Someone who is capable of brilliance, as attributed to Milch in the article, is clearly more than an action junkie. What could have motivated him to fall down from his 'exalted' state? Only one thing. The loss of mental clarity. How is it lost? Through darkness. What is the easiest way to a dark mental state in gambling? A prolonged losing streak. He had plenty of money. He wasn't trying to recapture his losses. What he sought to regain was his state of brilliance. But he did so by chasing the action, instead of stepping back. The old painter-with-his-nose-against-the-canvas paradigm.

In horse racing winning big exotic tickets, the style Milch played the track, can make a person feel like an absolute genius. When that genius is not confirmed for a long time, race after race, day after day, week after week, etc, then an identity crisis may be knocking on the door.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by MJC922

Yeah well you can't get many players to admit their 'a-game' isn't good enough because the last poll they took out here had about 80% of them ahead for the year. The problem is most people are seriously delusional.

Link?

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by pandy

Absolutely. Most of us bet horses for fun and entertainment.

When I felt that I was perhaps becoming a compulsive gambler, it wasn't because I felt addicted to "action." It was because I would try to foolishly recoup my losses, usually called "chasing bets," which I believe is a common behavioral pattern of many compulsive gamblers. I didn't want to make another bet because I craved making bets, I wanted to win back the money I lost right away. That's not only compulsive, it's stupid, and it took the fun out of betting horses. Once I got back to only betting the horses that I went down to the track to bet in the first place, it was fun.

You were never a compulsive gambler or even close. It takes far longer than a month. Compulsive gamblers don't see losing as negatively as you did and that is why you caught yourself so quickly. Compulsive gamblers chase bets because they believe the big score is just around the corner. It's great that you found the sweet spot for yourself, but it doesn't seem to me you were never in any real danger of being Milch.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

You know who James Dobson is, right? I won't get into a long discussion, but that interview with Bundy was bullshit concocted by both Dobson and Bundy. Seriously, you're smart enough to know Ted Bundy wasn't a serial killer because he was addicted to pornography. Or that the elimination of pornography would result in a substantial reduction in crime, although that was precisely Dobson's position. Or that Bundy didn't get a high from killing and ever felt bad for his victims. It was heinous that Bundy was actually trying to blame his behavior on porn hours from execution.

IMO, there's a starting point catalyst to ALL behaviors, good or bad. The foundational wiring which takes place in the human mind, with the release of dopamine and other trigger chemicals, is something that you've previously discussed in your past posts, Rich. Don't you think when trying to fix/heal a person from a bad repetitive behavior, that you have to go back to the foundation catalyst, identify it, eliminate it and substitute a positive catalyst/behavior in it's place?

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

It may seem that way, on the surface, but you merely describe an action junkie. Someone who is capable of brilliance, as attributed to Milch in the article, is clearly more than an action junkie. What could have motivated him to fall down from his 'exalted' state? Only one thing. The loss of mental clarity. How is it lost? Through darkness. What is the easiest way to a dark mental state in gambling? A prolonged losing streak. He had plenty of money. He wasn't trying to recapture his losses. What he sought to regain was his state of brilliance. But he did so by chasing the action, instead of stepping back. The old painter-with-his-nose-against-the-canvas paradigm.

In horse racing winning big exotic tickets, the style Milch played the track, can make a person feel like an absolute genius. When that genius is not confirmed for a long time, race after race, day after day, week after week, etc, then an identity crisis may be knocking on the door.

It's an interesting perspective. I don't know Milch, but I've known some problem gamblers. Not a one of them ever felt bad about blowing their bankroll. If anything they sounded positive. They were just a score away from being back on top, and all they needed was a new bankroll. They never expressed a feeling that they lost their mental clarity, and you don't go broke without a serious losing streak. They lost every photo, had some bad breaks, but they were due as long as they could get enough money to bet. But they were too smart to lose forever. Testing shows that compulsive gamblers get a huge high from a win, but losing doesn't bother them. They're chasing the big one. On the other hand, smart gamblers don't get nearly the high from winning, but they absolutely detest losing.

As I said, believe what you want. In the end all that matters is that you recognize in yourself if your behavior is positive or negative.