More tariffs....gonna hurt

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by chadk66

We can do this much longer than China.

Why would we? Tariffs aren't going to stop Chinese policies about software and other issues that make doing business there hard for American companies. Tariffs aren't going to bring back American blue collar jobs lost to automation. Tariffs aren't going to help American farmers who are facing falling crop prices.


One thing tariffs may be doing is making Chinese manufacturers relocate their production from China to other countries like Vietnam. No tariffs on cheap goods from Nam. What does that accomplish in terms of American interests?

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by reckless

US consumers and corporations -- especially with the destruction of our manufacturing industry and loss of blue-collar jobs which I mentioned countless times that you and others have ignored

I have not ignored the issue. I have often posted data to support my position, such as the following. You and others never responded to the data, or offered proof for your assertions regarding the decline in blue-collar manufacturing jobs.

One study by two Ball State University professors found that between 2000 and 2010, about 87% of the manufacturing job losses stemmed from factories becoming more efficient. The chief driver of more efficiency in factories: automation and better technology. The other 13% of job losses were due to trade.

https://money.cnn.com/2017/01/30/new...ion/index.html

[reckless]

Originally Posted by Clocker

I have not ignored the issue. I have often posted data to support my position, such as the following. You and others never responded to the data, or offered proof for your assertions regarding the decline in blue-collar manufacturing jobs.

https://money.cnn.com/2017/01/30/new...ion/index.html

Did you actually post that since I didn't provide proof of the millions of job losses and closed factories since the 'free' trade deals you claim was good for the US economy that it never happened??

Stop this idiocy now.

Cut and paste all the Trade associations graphs, Fortune 500 charts and other self serving lies by all those anti American worker Wall Street gonivs you like. I easily stand by what I've say .... as does the history books.

You are the one that needs a lesson or two on economics, real free and reciprocal trade and politics, not me.

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by Clocker

Why would we? Tariffs aren't going to stop Chinese policies about software and other issues that make doing business there hard for American companies. Tariffs aren't going to bring back American blue collar jobs lost to automation. Tariffs aren't going to help American farmers who are facing falling crop prices.


One thing tariffs may be doing is making Chinese manufacturers relocate their production from China to other countries like Vietnam. No tariffs on cheap goods from Nam. What does that accomplish in terms of American interests?

it'll drive the costs of their goods up in this country forcing americans to buy U.S. made. I'm not the least bit worried about farmers. They will grow whatever crop they need to profit. If they can't we taxpayers will prop them up like we always have. Take ND for example. We are the leading producer of something like eight or ten different crops. Most farmers here grow four or five different crops on a given years. My uncle for example had Canola, Barley, Chic Peas, Lentils, Wheat, Durum and Sunflowers this year. Oh and oats. That's eight different crops just for one farmer. And they are finding these crop rotations are causing much larger yields than normal. In years past they took 1/3 of their crops out of rotation each year and raised crops on 2/3. You could only get a decent yield raising two years in a row. The year after it was out of planting the yields were much higher than the second year in a crop. Now they are finding planting durum after chic peas or lentils is bringing 50% more yield than after taking that land out of production for a year. It puts nutrients in the ground the durum needs. It's amazing what's happened with farming in the past twenty years. When you can be buying $750,000 combines your doing ok.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by reckless

Did you actually post that since I didn't provide proof of the millions of job losses and closed factories since the 'free' trade deals you claim was good for the US economy that it never happened??

You have shown no causation between job loss and free trade. My post, and many other examples posted and ignored here, show cause and effect for the changes.

I easily stand by what I've say .... as does the history books.

And you say it without proof or evidence. What history books prove your assertions? Time to wake up, it isn't the 1960's any more. Global economics is the reality. Nationalism, yours and Trump's, is dead and buried.

Just as an example, American companies are getting hurt by tariffs because they produce some of the parts they use in their own products in plants they own in Mexico or Canada. They have to pay tariffs on stuff that they make themselves. That is the reality of the global economy. To ignore it is to put your head in the sand. And you and Trump ignore the basic fact that it is the American consumers who is ultimately hurt by Trump's trade policies. While his buddies in Big Steel and other industries get fat and happy.

You are the one that needs a lesson or two on economics, real free and reciprocal trade and politics, not me.

I am an economist. My degrees are in economics, and my many years of experience, in teaching at the university level and working in the public and private sectors, are in economics. Trump is an economic illiterate, and just to be charitable, you could certainly stand a lesson or three.

Trump's failure to understand trade is one of the few issues that the vast majority of economists agree on today, regardless of their political outlook.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by chadk66

it'll drive the costs of their goods up in this country forcing americans to buy U.S. made.

Denying Americans the freedom of choice and jacking up the cost of living for the American working class. Trump's own campaign people said that his tariffs would increase the cost of living for the average American by 10-15%. But that's great for selected US companies, like Big Steel.

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by Clocker

Denying Americans the freedom of choice and jacking up the cost of living for the American working class. Trump's own campaign people said that his tariffs would increase the cost of living for the average American by 10-15%. But that's great for selected US companies, like Big Steel.

I don't think anybody has claimed there wouldn't be a sacrifice to right the ship. In the end it will benefit all very nicely. This shit didn't happen overnight and won't be fixed overnight.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by chadk66

I don't think anybody has claimed there wouldn't be a sacrifice to right the ship. In the end it will benefit all very nicely. This shit didn't happen overnight and won't be fixed overnight.

If one is to suppose that lower wages overseas are the reason why jobs have left. In most cases they aren't but let's just imagine for the sake of the argument they are...

Those jobs that left due to lower labor inputs WILL NOT return until the wages in other labor markets catch up or surpass the ones currently in the United States.

They will simply go to another country that has lower wages and a "fairer" (Trumps words not mine) trade relationship with the United States. Our deficit with a country like China may shrink but will grow with those countries.

The end result no matter how you cut it is fewer options and higher prices for the American consumer.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

Those jobs that left due to lower labor inputs WILL NOT return until the wages in other labor markets catch up or surpass the ones currently in the United States.

They will simply go to another country that has lower wages and a "fairer" (Trumps words not mine) trade relationship with the United States. Our deficit with a country like China may shrink but will grow with those countries.

Low skill labor is substitutable. Demand for higher wages was already pressing Chinese manufacturers. Combined with US tariffs on Chinese imports into this country, relocating to other more favorable Asian countries, like Vietnam, is becoming more attractive to companies.

Chinese manufacturing is maturing and low-cost, labor-intensive work is moving to other low cost countries like Vietnam, Myanmar and Indonesia while China takes on more advanced manufacturing. What we are seeing are the results of China’s industrial revolution. With Xi Jinping’s “Made in China 2025” initiative, Chinese manufacturing will soon become world class. The next industrial revolution will be in Vietnam.

http://www.scmr.com/article/in_vietn...ng_is_changing

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by Clocker

Low skill labor is substitutable. Demand for higher wages was already pressing Chinese manufacturers. Combined with US tariffs on Chinese imports into this country, relocating to other more favorable Asian countries, like Vietnam, is becoming more attractive to companies.

I'm currently looking at the African continent with the question, “Is South Africa Ready for the 4th Industrial Revolution?”......They may become a major player soon:

https://www.biznisafrica.com/is-sout...al-revolution/

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

If one is to suppose that lower wages overseas are the reason why jobs have left. In most cases they aren't but let's just imagine for the sake of the argument they are...

Those jobs that left due to lower labor inputs WILL NOT return until the wages in other labor markets catch up or surpass the ones currently in the United States.

They will simply go to another country that has lower wages and a "fairer" (Trumps words not mine) trade relationship with the United States. Our deficit with a country like China may shrink but will grow with those countries.

The end result no matter how you cut it is fewer options and higher prices for the American consumer.

that's not the intent on this. those jobs that left aren't coming back. and we don't want minimum wage manufacturing jobs here that make cheap ass shit. We want good paying manufacturing jobs here that produce top notch stuff. We need to transition the public into buying US made goods again. Not cheap shit. They can move those jobs all around the country we just need to put tariffs on it all.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by chadk66

We need to transition the public into buying US made goods again.

By increasing their taxes and raising their cost of living?

Hint: Tariffs are just another name for taxes on American consumers.

we don't want minimum wage manufacturing jobs here that make cheap ass shit.

Who is "we" and why do "we" care what kind of jobs keeps people gainfully employed?

Does anyone really think that the government knows better than the private sector what kind of companies and jobs we need? The same government, different faces, that told us about all the shovel-ready jobs?

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by Clocker

By increasing their taxes and raising their cost of living?

Hint: Tariffs are just another name for taxes on American consumers.

Who is "we" and why do "we" care what kind of jobs keeps people gainfully employed?

Does anyone really think that the government knows better than the private sector what kind of companies and jobs we need? The same government, different faces, that told us about all the shovel-ready jobs?

. Wages are on the way up here. The whole country should care what kind of jobs we have here. The better the jobs the better the country. Like I said this will be short term. Doesn't really warrant a lot of concern. China can't play this game long.

[barahona44]

Originally Posted by chadk66

. Wages are on the way up here. The whole country should care what kind of jobs we have here. The better the jobs the better the country. Like I said this will be short term. Doesn't really warrant a lot of concern. China can't play this game long.

One of the biggest advantages of a dictatorship is that you can take the long view.The Chinese leaders don't have to be overly concerned with short term problems for their citizens to achieve their final goal.

[chadk66]

I [QUOTE=barahona44;2372973]One of the biggest advantages of a dictatorship is that you can take the long view.The Chinese leaders don't have to be overly concerned with short term problems for their citizens to achieve their final goal.[/QUOTE I disagree. But we'll see.