Religion III

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Experimentally, the prime mover is a bit shaky...
Metaphysics often gets updated and refined scientifically.

Of course quantum theory was not around when Aristotle and Aquinas pondered.

Actor and I have mentioned quantum fluctuations before.

You and Aristotle and Aquinas believe that nothing can be a cause of itself . Something can NOT come out of nothing, so you folks explain how something, was caused by something, and that caused by something, ad infinitum.....eventually leading back to god.

However, on the sub-atomic level, in quantum theory, particles come in and out of existence without a detectable cause. This shows that a cause for everything is not always necessary and some events could be triggered by the random contingent nature of these particles, without the need for a first cause.

So then on the human scale of things dominoes knock each other over as Aristotle predicted. But How come it does not work on the sub atomic. Did god not create neutrons, protons and quarks?

Of course, nothing can cause itself. It's a self-defeating belief.

And when you show me on the macro level that that nothing produces something, you'll make me a believer. There is no such thing as "nothing", since the universe is Something. Something and Nothing cannot exist at the same time and same sense. Violates the Law of Noncontradiction.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Of course, nothing can cause itself. It's a self-defeating belief.

And when you show me on the macro level that that nothing produces something, you'll make me a believer. There is no such thing as "nothing", since the universe is Something. Something and Nothing cannot exist at the same time and same sense. Violates the Law of Noncontradiction.

What's wrong with using vacuum fluctuations to cast doubt on your assumption that something cannot come from nothing? Does the quantum level exist or doesn't it?

Should I list again all the measurable, demonstrable phenomena on the sub-atomic?
The quantum level can easily be projected unto the macro level THEORETICALLY. Much much easier than you projecting the finite onto the infinite THEORETICALLY.

Neither PROJECTION may be proven.

However, we can invalidate your "everything needs a cause" by measuring the existence of non-causal vacuum fluctuations.

Can you measure god's existence? Could Aristotle, Aquinas or Dr. Feser?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I can know something about the infinite because he is a personal, intelligent, moral being and he has chosen to reveal many things about himself and his creation through his prophets, apostles and finally through his only Begotten Son -- to everyone who has ears to hear and eyes to see.

Great to believe. Faith can be good.

But still no logical proof. Let the metaphysics go, unless you are willing to admit
it is not much more than an intellectual exercise.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

What's wrong with using vacuum fluctuations to cast doubt on your assumption that something cannot come from nothing? Does the quantum level exist or doesn't it?

Should I list again all the measurable, demonstrable phenomena on the sub-atomic?
The quantum level can easily be projected unto the macro level THEORETICALLY. Much much easier than you projecting the finite onto the infinite THEORETICALLY.

Neither PROJECTION may be proven.

However, we can invalidate your "everything needs a cause" by measuring the existence of non-causal vacuum fluctuations.

Can you measure god's existence? Could Aristotle, Aquinas or Dr. Feser?

I don't want stupid projections unto the macro level. I want concrete examples in, of, from, within the macro level that any kind of change takes place without a cause behind it.

It seems to me that if there's real harmony in the universe, as you think there is, you should be able to come up with as many macro examples as you think you have micro example.

God is not a physical entity. He cannot be measured. But he can reveal himself in remarkable ways to people when he chooses to do so.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I don't want stupid projections unto the macro level. I want concrete examples in, of, from, within the macro level that any kind of change takes place without a cause behind it.

It seems to me that if there's real harmony in the universe, as you think there is, you should be able to come up with as many macro examples as you think you have micro example.

God is not a physical entity. He cannot be measured. But he can reveal himself in remarkable ways to people when he chooses to do so.

I said you can not and I can not projedt our respective theories. You cannot expand your little potter and his pots out to deity creating cosmological pots, nor can I except theoretically. However we can observe and measure and calculate

quantum fluctuations (Casimir Effect) that pop in and out of existence causeless.

Of course you gents can't measure your god. You can not even demonstrate accurately, or describe him/she/it.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

I said you can not and I can not projedt our respective theories. You cannot expand your little potter and his pots out to deity creating cosmological pots, nor can I except theoretically. However we can observe and measure and calculate

quantum fluctuations (Casimir Effect) that pop in and out of existence causeless.

Of course you gents can't measure your god. You can not even demonstrate accurately, or describe him/she/it.

Again, give me a change in the macro universe that doesn't have a cause.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by hcap

However, on the sub-atomic level, in quantum theory, particles come in and out of existence without a detectable cause. This shows that a cause for everything is not always necessary and...

The key word there is "detectable."

Just because our present instrumentation can't detect a cause, doesn't mean there wasn't a cause.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

The key word there is "detectable."

Just because our present instrumentation can't detect a cause, doesn't mean there wasn't a cause.

So, you think a deity is at work in the Casimir effect?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

Do you also think Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, which is related to observed vacuum fluctuations of the Casimer effect, is only uncertain due to our inability to be precise?

Or maybe Werner is lying?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Again, give me a change in the macro universe that doesn't have a cause.

You never answered, does god not operate on the sub-atomic level? If your god is so omnipotent, what's the big deal with the very very small deal?

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by hcap

So, you think a deity is at work in the Casimir effect?

Stay with the argument at hand, not with a meander into the specifics of Quantum theory.


I stated:


"The key word there is "detectable."

Just because our present instrumentation can't detect a cause, doesn't mean there wasn't a cause."

We can't assume there wasn't a cause just because we can't detect one. Fact!

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You never answered, does god not operate on the sub-atomic level? If your god is so omnipotent, what's the big deal with the very very small deal?

God created all things. Now give me an example on the macro level of change occurring without a cause.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Stay with the argument at hand, not with a meander into the specifics of Quantum theory.

I stated:


"The key word there is "detectable."

Just because our present instrumentation can't detect a cause, doesn't mean there wasn't a cause."

We can't assume there wasn't a cause just because we can't detect one. Fact!

To meaningfully discuss "detectable" on the sub-atomic level, the uncertainty principle alters our ability to "detect".

"The Uncertainty principle, also called Heisenberg uncertainty principle or indeterminacy principle, statement, articulated (1927) by the German physicist Werner Heisenberg, that the position and the velocity of an object cannot both be measured exactly, at the same time, even in theory."

It is not only our ability to detect, it is intrinsic to the quantum level itself

Therefore as far as virtual particles popping in and out without a cause...

"In quantum physics, a quantum fluctuation (or vacuum state fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point in space, as explained in Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle"

Our "fuzziness" is the operable word there , and evidently in terms of cause and effect as well. The macro level does not repeat precisely on the quantum level. Things do not always work the way we expect them to.

Maybe god pulled a fast one on theologians?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

To meaningfully discuss "detectable" on the sub-atomic level, the uncertainty principle alters our ability to "detect".

"The Uncertainty principle, also called Heisenberg uncertainty principle or indeterminacy principle, statement, articulated (1927) by the German physicist Werner Heisenberg, that the position and the velocity of an object cannot both be measured exactly, at the same time, even in theory."

It is not only our ability to detect, it is intrinsic to the quantum level itself

Therefore as far as virtual particles popping in and out without a cause...

"In quantum physics, a quantum fluctuation (or vacuum state fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point in space, as explained in Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle"

Our "fuzziness" is the operable word there , and evidently in terms of cause and effect as well. The macro level does not repeat precisely on the quantum level. Things do not always work the way we expect them to.

Maybe god pulled a fast one on theologians?

More likely the scientists are suckers! Since a cause can't be detected, scientists cannot assume there isn't one, most especially since on the macro level all changes have causes. Fact!

[hcap]

I said boxcar could not prove the "Cosmic potter" from the anolgy to we little potters making little pots. I also said I could not prove a giant vacuum fluctuation bring about the universe from nothing from observed little vacuum fluctuations as demonstrated by the measurable Casimer effect.

But at least wee have calculated the forces involved.
Aristotle, Aquinas, Dr Feser, you and boxcar have no such demonstrable
evidence.

Pays to be agnostic?????

Then again, I do not require a deity to believe in to be spiritual.
A deity may be besides the point. Especially the way most popular deities are portrayed popularly.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

I said boxcar could not prove the "Cosmic potter" from the anolgy to we little potters making little pots. I also said I could not prove a giant vacuum fluctuation bring about the universe from nothing from observed little vacuum fluctuations as demonstrated by the measurable Casimer effect.

But at least wee have calculated the forces involved.
Aristotle, Aquinas, Dr Feser, you and boxcar have no such demonstrable
evidence.

Pays to be agnostic?????

Then again, I do not require a deity to believe in to be spiritual.
A deity may be besides the point. Especially the way most popular deities are portrayed popularly.

And you haven't proved your causeless universe!